F grade numbers

[birdawg]

Does anyone here have a idea of how many F grade guns were produced? or D's ?
Thanks

[cargie32]

Jess, Roe Clark said that in 16 ga.'s there were 33 "D"'s and 3 "F"'s, and in 20 ga.'s there were 59 "D"'s and 9 "F"'s. I do not know if this exact or not, but thats what he came up with in 1992. I have nothing on 12's (Craig, where art thou?)

[birdawg]

Thanks Bill,
Hopefully Craig will chime in here.

[Researcher]

We'll never really know because we don't have records for the first 9600 or so graded 12-gauge guns. Over the years I've seen three F-/FE-Grades that fall in that range, and I believe one of our members has a higher serial number FE for which there is no card. As "Pop" Headrick once told me "the fancier the gun and the more unusual, the more likely the card is missing."

Roe only counted three FE-Grade 16-gauges, all in the Philadelphia era, but in the early 1980s I looked over a well used, fully optioned Savage-era 16-gauge FE-Grade at Albrights in Easton, Maryland. That was seven or eight years before I started recording my sightings.

[fox-admin]

Dave is correct about the first 9600 cards missing. I have counted the F's in 12 gauge up the the change to second gen engraving. I counted 15 first gen F's

[birdawg]

Thanks Guy. Valabule info as usual. Any guess on the number of 1st gen D's?

[fox-admin]

I have only done counts on the early engraving period. I used statistical methods to estimate the grades of the missing records guns:
D Actual count=125, estimated total=168
C Actual count=1079, estimated total=1537
B Actual count=1700, estimated total-2158
A Actual count=8661, estimated total=17108

[birdawg]

Thanks Craig, very helpfull Info. Really appreciate the effort.
Jess

[Researcher]

Again, this is only a gut feeling, but in 12-gauge my feeling is there were more first generation D-/DE-Grades built then there were 2nd generation DE-Grades. The introduction fo the XE-Grade, I'm feeling, cut into DE-Grade sales. Maybe Craig will prove me wrong.

Actually really the 1st generation D-/DE-Grades were fine scroll and the banner on the side with a game scene on the bottom, similar to but more fancy then the early C-/CE-Grades. So, the Gough-style DE-Grades are really 3rd generation.

[fox-admin]

I agree with Dave, but time will tell once we do a full tally. The early D's second variation are one of my favorites, kinda an upgraded C.
The thing that amazed me was the overwhelming percentage of A grades before the introduction of the Sterlingworth. A's were 85%+ percent of the graded guns before the Sterlingworth, after the introduction of the Sterlingworth the A dropped to 67% of the graded guns. The Sterly really cut into the sale of A's.

[birdawg]

Do we even have a photo of a first Gen D? The one on the site and the one in Mac's book must be a 2nd?

[FOXIST]

Jess
I have some pics of a early D grade we took at the 2007 Bo Whoop. This gun belongs to a fellow member and it has some very cool engraving. I cannot remember the exact serial but I think it was in the 15xx range. Craig might have written it down? This is the earliest D I have seen.Paul

[Researcher]

This is the style of early D-/DE-Grade I was refering to --



This picture was taken from Tom Kidd's article on two-barrel sets in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Nine, Issue 3, pages 135 to 145. In that article Mr. Kidd shows two early D-/DE-Grades, this gun 511, and 442. I examined 511 at the winter Las Vegas show several years ago when Roger Bain had it for sale. I've crossed paths with 442 several times over my decades of Fox looking. These DE-Grades are very similar to number 35 that I did the article on in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Twelve, Issue 1, but number 35 is stamped CS on the watertable, BC on one barrel flat and D on the barrel flat and forearm iron of the second barrel set. Apparently Ansley hadn't really decided what grade this was that early!

[birdawg]

Thanks Guys,
Paul,That is close to what I have thought an 1st gen D was until I saw the photos from Dave,

Dave I see what you mean. I don't think the receiver is more detail than your early C or my 182 on the C photos section.
The big difference seem to be on the barrels. Of course that is without seeing the trigger plate.

[fox-admin]

Paul: Thanks for posting the pictures of that D, it was the best engraved Fox I have had in my hands. The old girl had been hunted hard but still had charisma as Mr. Kidd says.