Fox Collectors

Hey guys –
First post here – great forum I have been browsing for a couple weeks since I found out I’d be inheriting a sterlingworth from my grandfather and have really found this site helpful.

A little history – the gun is a 1911 (according to serial # chart here) sterlingworth that my grandfather inherited from my great grandfather and then passed down to me. The gun was used heavily, as it should have been, by both who owned it before me. Some time in the 50s, my grandfather brought it back to the factory and had both sets of barrels bored to accommodate 2 ¾” shells, barrels were rebrowned, receiver was case hardened, the gun was restocked with one that matches the original, and the action was gone through. No longer a purist’s gun, but then I’m no purist so it doesn’t upset me (that much).

The issue – I took it to the field the day before yesterday to shoot some clays. Absolutely loved it…BUT – when fired right to left as I generally do, the gun had a tendency to double fire (happened twice). When it didn’t double fire, it generally turned the safety on. The gun seems tight and I don’t think it is trying to come open, but I’m no expert. Fired left to right, it didn’t show even a hint of a problem (fired in this order >100rds). As soon as I realized it was trouble free when I fired left barrel first, I spent the rest of the day doing that and figured I’d have to take it in to get checked out.

So, solutions I can try at home, or someone I can bring it to? I believe I have seen someone in CT mentioned as a good smith, but I can’t seem to track down the thread at the moment (I’m in CT so would be helpful to have someone close by). Great guns, great forum – I look forward to reading more here. Thanks a lot!
Jim

Trigger/Sear problems are best left to the professionals to fix. I don't know who to recommend in your neck of the woods, perhaps Mike Orlen in Amherst Mass. If you are going to have to ship it I would recommend Buck Hamlin although his specialty is Syracuse Lefevers he does excellent work on other makes as well.

Thanks Twice. Mike Orlen is only about 1.5hrs from me - anybody use him is he a good way to go? Anyone have any other reccomendations for someone in CT or the surrounding area?

I should have known a free gun was too good to be true - not only am I going to be paying a smith to work on it in short order, but the #$&@ thing has me crawling all over this site looking at pics and thinking of ways to explain to my wife why I need a couple graded guns to keep the sterlingworth company. This hobby is going to be trouble.

The sear nose and hammer knotch angles are exceedingly critical, and when either (or both) gets worn that hammer could jar off when the opposite barrel is fired. Usually the sear knotch gets rounded off first. First thing I would do is to check the trigger pulls with a good pull gauge. They should be ~ 4 pounds or more. It sounds like the left trigger might be really light and is jarring off when the right barrel is fired first. Sorry, I don't offer advice on how to recut the knotches. But checking with a pull gauge will let you know what the double firing cause might be before shipping it to a good 'smith.

Just one caveat - when gents try to recut angles themselves, using a trial and error approach, they remove metal each and every time the angle(s) is reshaped. And that hammer starts to cock earlier in the opening cycle. Similar to a guy who tries to level a chair by cutting and recutting its legs, the chair keeps getting closer to the floor. Back to the Fox - you don't want either hammer to be fully cocked when the gun is only half opened. If you are not very familar with this type work I heartily recommend you send the gun to a good smith.

Your safety reset issue is difficult to diagnose with limited data. Typically that problem doesn't depend on which barrel is fired first. One possiblity.... your hand and thumb position are different when firing one barrel or the other; it may be when the right barrel is fired first your thumb resets the safety button under recoil. Silvers

Thanks Silvers - I plan on sending it out to have the repairs made, just a matter of where to send it at this point. I will invest in a good pull gauge and check it out. Left trigger doesn't feel particularly light to the hand...but certainly worth measuring with a good gauge as you suggest. It sounds like the left should be ~ 1/2 pound heavier than the right...is this correct?

As far as the safety goes, I can't figure it. Thumb was well out of the way when right trigger was pulled. The fact it doesn't engage when the left trigger is pulled is what gave me some confidence the gun wasn't trying to come open - no reason for it to try to come open when one barrel is fired but not the other. Either way - everything beyond disassembling for a good cleaning is pretty much over my head at this point in the game, so I won't be trying to file any parts down out in the garage just yet.

If anyone knows of a good gunsmith somewhere in the CT area, I'd like to hear about it. I'll mail it out if that's what it boils down to...but I plan on shooting this thing plenty and I'm sure it will need work again in the future - I'd much rather be able to drop it off and shake someone's hand and pay them cash when the job was done than mail the thing off and call with a credit card.

Jim: If you are going to ship the gun anyway I would recommend Jim Kelly, owner of Darlington Gun Works, Darlington, South Carolina. I have a small collection of Fox guns and he has worked on several for me & always does outstanding work.

Best Regards, George

Jim, conventional thinking is the left pull should be set up about 1/2 pound more than the right pull supposedly to help keep the left barrel from jarring off. I don't subscribe to that. Depending on another 1/2 pound or so seems iffy to me. Neither hammer should double-off at any reasonable pull weight. When I redo trigger pulls I try to get the barrel I'll likely fire more often, to be slightly heavier than the opposite one. That setup will allow the trigger on the oft fired barrel to become slightly lighter and ~equal to the other one as the parts become worn thru use.

It's my belief the reason many left trigger pulls now measure heavier than the right (on vintage guns) is because the right barrel was fired more frequently over decades of use and its sear tip and hammer knotch are rounded. I really doubt most guns were manufactured that way unless specified for some reason by the purchaser.

I don't want to get something started here but it seems very unlikely to me that a well fitted rotary bolt gun like a Fox could open the lever on recoil, actuate the pushrod enough to engage the safety, then snap back shut. All in an instant and not noticed by the shooter. There's a thread on another site that cites that scenario but, well, the best I can say is I'd have to see it to believe it.

Jim, it seems like you have the bug; you might consider joining the AHFCA. There's a Members Forum here that is not visable unless you are a member and signed in. There's plenty of technical Fox stuff posted there and Fox guns may be offered for sale or wanted. Silvers

Thanks Silvers - I have been considering joining. Certainly it seems the serial # look up service would be a help if considering another purchase. I'm not on the market just yet, but as I wrap up whatever work the sterlingworth needs I will consider a membership. Certainly enough information here to merit it.

What is really messing with me on this trigger issue - and I confirmed it with my grandfather today - the gun's action was gone through fully at the savage factory he believes sometime in the 50s. Since then, the gun hasn't been fired more than 20 times until I started putting rounds through it this past weekend. Doesn't seem like anything should be worn. I'm going to invest in a pull gauge to check the weights out, and I think I'll use the disassembly instructions here to break everything down and give it a good long staring at before I resign myself to sending it off.

Thanks to all for the advice - and again if anyone has someone on the east coast they'd recommend (or not recommend) to do the work, let me know.

Silvers wrote:I don't want to get something started here but it seems very unlikely to me that a well fitted rotary bolt gun like a Fox could open the lever on recoil, actuate the pushrod enough to engage the safety, then snap back shut. All in an instant and not noticed by the shooter. There's a thread on another site that cites that scenario but, well, the best I can say is I'd have to see it to believe it.
Silvers

I've cited almost that scenario as a possible explanation. I agree that's it's unlikely for "a well fitted rotary bolt gun like a Fox " but that's not in my scenario. I was referring to A) a poorly fitted rotary bolt or B) a well worn rotary bolt. I specifically asked whether the gun was worn or had recently been "fixed." In cases where one or the other of those applied I HAVE SEEN Foxes open under fire and stay open and I HAVE FELT them partially open and reclose. I've witnessed dozens of such occurrences with other other doublle guns, including Browning and Beretta O/U's.

Since I own no shotgun with an automatic safety, I've never seen partial opening activate one, but I wouldn't bet against it.

As to poorly ,or rather inadequately fitted, rotary bolts allowing guns to open under fire, I experienced that with a Fox I recently rejointed. I had a professional gunsmith add some weld to the bolting slot and we discussed the proper fitting and geometry of the bolt and slot. He explained how incorrect contact between the two created a wedge effect that forced the lever right during firing. Sure enough, during the course of fitting and test firing I experienced just that. I guess you could say it was "poorly fitted" at that point and I eventually got it right.

I had an AE Utica 12 gage several years ago that I discovered opened on firing after I had already shot it many times previously. It seemed to close and lock tight until it was fired then it came almost full open. On dis-assembly I found the nose of the yoke that engages the rotary bolt was almost broken in two. It was cocked at an angle that with the top lever spring tension it would activate the bolt enough to seem like it was snapping shut and locked until it was fired. As I was living in the sticks at the time I repaired it by puting the yoke in the lathe, cut of the broken nose, faced the yoke slightly at the front, drilled and tapped a hole in the yoke and threaded a piece of oil hardening drill rod into the yoke. I then contoured iy to match the old tip and hardened it with a torch and oil bath. By facing a slight amount off the face of the yolk I was able to leave a small flange where the drill rod screwed into the yolk to stabilize it laterally while maintaining the original dimensions. As far as I know it is still holding fine as I did this in 1965 and sold the gun to my brother-in-law who had it until about 2000 when the B------- sold it without telling me. I would like to know where it is now but I can't find the serial number in my old stuff. I do know this if anybody has it, it is a Utica 12 gage AE with factory beavertail and capped pistol grip stock both fancy walnut, a factory vent rib on 26" open choke barrels and a single trigger. Oh the mistakes and injustices of youth. Hope this helps somebody whose gun is coming open. Lee.