Daddy Fox has a new girlfreind

lee r moege · Post by **lee r moege** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:53 am

Well I did it! I bought Crosne's AE 20 gage to go with the A grade two barrel set I have referred to in previous posts. It isn't collector grade but appears to be sound. I don't own any"safe Queens" and plan to use it! Of the ones available it was the only one in the configuration I like, double triggers and straight grip. The forend is a replacement in a Utica style I have seen and the workmanship is good. The butt is original and refinished. Barrels are #3 chambered 2 1/2" so you know the next question. I live close to J.J. Perodeaux who lengthened the forcing cones on a Belgian "Best" gun for me a while back and am thinking the same here rather than recutting the chambers to 2 3/4". I am going to do some preliminary wall thickness measuring before I contact him and feel .100 should be the minimum wall thickness at the chamber mouth if I do rechamber it. What do you guy think? Out here, getting the RST 2 1/2" loads may be a problem. Where can they be had if things go amuck on the re-work. I would rather have a partially restored Duesenberg with some issues than a ground up restored Studebaker Champion. Of course a big cosideration was how much can I end up in it for. Thanks, Lee.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:01 pm

Lee, congrats on your new purchase. She sounds nice! FWIW I would not open the chambers and especially the cones if it were my gun.

I guess it depends on how many shells you'll really shoot. If you have enough wall thickness, and you're on a skeet field or clays course every week or so, that might be a consideration. But for hunting or occasional targets I'd leave the chambers and cones as is. Some of the long cone work is dreadful and looks like the guy used a machinist's taper pin reamer. The next purchaser (sooner or later) will likely spot the long cones and the deal often goes south. If I were to modify for 2-3/4" shells I'd much prefer to cut the chambers to same with short cones, than to leave the chambers short and use long funnel cones. Again this is my opinion only.

RST shells may be easily ordered by phone with a credit card and I've been at the plant many times and have seen the UPS guy there every day for pickups. RST is pretty accomodating and you can even order mixed flats. Frank

http://www.rstshells.com/

lee r moege · Post by **lee r moege** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:36 pm

Thanks for the reply Frank. I didn't take you to mean to shoot 2 3/4" in the gun as is, although another one I looked at had the seller advising that this was no problem and was going to advise prospective buyers as such by letter. Mc Intosh indicates that Savage routinely lengthened chambers when guns came in for repair clear into the 60's. My problem is that beside the Fox, I have the Belgian custom built gun, and a model 21 20 gage all with 2 3/4" chambers and about 5 cases of AA 7 1/2 shot shells. The way ammo is, I'm a little nervous about the supply of the short stuff long term. I remember how it was25 to 30 years ago when I had some fine English game guns I was trying to feed. Lee.

Twice Barrel · Post by **Twice Barrel** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:18 pm

lee r moege wrote:The way ammo is, I'm a little nervous about the supply of the short stuff long term. I remember how it was25 to 30 years ago when I had some fine English game guns I was trying to feed. Lee.

Lee now is the time you might think about taking up reloading. It's easy to trim a AA to 2 1/2 and roll crimp it. You can use the 1 ounce AA wad and load the same data as the AA 7/8th ounce load.

DoubleGun · Post by **DoubleGun** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:40 pm

Lee,
I like long cones in that they take very little metal and do the same thing as lengthening the chambers - reduce pressure and allow you to use any reasonable 2 3/4" shell. I have not seen the poor quality work that Frank mentions, but obviously you need to know and trust the barrel smith that does the work. It seems you have that covered as well if you have already had a gun done by him. He will measure the wall thickness at the end of the chamber to be sure you have enough metal, and .100" is a good figure to use as a minimum. With #3 barrels you should be OK, but do check. RST makes good shells but they are never cheap and have to be ordered. My vote is to let your gunsmith do his job and then feed your new 20 low to moderate pressure shells and enjoy.
One other thing that I've pondered on. I would bet that virtually all of our guns have been "proofed" by about any sort of shell that would fit in the chamber, over their life times. An 80 year old gun that, until fairly recently, was probably looked upon as " an old shotgun" has had whatever shells that were available at the local hardware store run through it. Most of those cartridges were probably not low presure loads.
Enjoy you new gun, it sounds like a dandy.
Cheers, Pete

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:41 pm

I personally wouldn't cut any steel out of any chamber or forcing cone for any reason. Number one, I can't believe that the reduction in pressure is going to improve the safety cushion that the original thickness of steel would have provided. Number two, the pressure generated in the chamber isn't going to blow up your gun or damage it, so why spend money to possibly lower the value of the gun? Use the shells that are proper for the gun or use the 2 3/4" shells of the lowest possible power. As Pete suggests, these guns have been proofed for all loads available at retail for the last eighty years. Either way, you don't damage the gun, lower its value, or spend a bunch of money with the barrel butchers. Yes, they are barrel butchers and they will do whatever is on their price list whether it is good for the gun or not.

mc15426378 · Post by **mc15426378** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:37 pm

Lee, congrats on the new gun. Do you have any pictures you could share with us? What's the bore/choke measurements now? Weight? Barrel length?
I also have an AE 20 and they sure are sweet.

The RSTs are very nice shells as I shoot some almost every day. May have to take up reloading at this pace.

Twice Barrel, what tool are you using for the roll crimp? For trimming the case?

Mike

NJdblgun · Post by **NJdblgun** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:09 pm

Lee, sounds like a very nice gun, 20 ga AE with straight grip. i wouldnt cut any metal on the gun, leave it original as long as it is safe. Good advise, to do some reloading, I plan to begin myself. In the short term, RST is a great, well run company, and make great low pressure shells

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:18 pm

Yeah, RST is a great company run by great people. I use them in all gauges, but seem to use more tens than any. I hope some of us will meet Alex and Morris at the Northeast Shoot this weekend.

Twice Barrel · Post by **Twice Barrel** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:42 pm

mc15426378 wrote: Twice Barrel, what tool are you using for the roll crimp? For trimming the case?

Mike

Mike my trim tool is a simple home made contraption consisting of a dowel that fits into the case with a screw on the bottom to fine tune length with a single edge razor blade set in the dowel at a slight angle about 2 1/4 inches from the end of the dowel.

I use vintage hand operate Bridgeport Gun Implement Co. (BGI) roll crimp tools. I use modern wads and overshot cards from Circlefly Co.
As I stated I adjust wad height to the load by varying wads. For 20 gauge I think that the max load you can get is 7/8th ounces in a 2 1/2 inch hull. With the 16 gauge I have been limited to 1 1/8th ounces using Remington SP16 wads but then again a 2 9/16th roll crimped shell has the same interior capacity as a 2 3/4 inch folded crimp shell.

wburns · Post by **wburns** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:00 am

Lee,
If you do not want to reload, just order the RST, or Polywads by mail. Thats what I do out here in ND. All of them are very goood shells, and as far as cost, there is little to no differnce if you are buying good shells anyways. I shoot a French SxS that uses 2 1/2. I shoot the Polywad brand due to my gun is finicky about brass case wall thickness. They go in my gun fine, but the others don't. Your gun likely won't have an issue like that. It is something prone to French guns from the time period mine was built from what I have heard. I love using the 2 1/2" shells. Less kick, and hit hard enough to take pheasants cleanly. Often the guns are a little lighter weight as well, so they carry in the field great. I would pattern the gun before you start messing with forcing cones, etc. If it is chocked tight. Check out the polywad spreader loads. They work well for opening up the pattern in older guns. Have fun with your new gun!

lee r moege · Post by **lee r moege** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:28 am

Thanks everybody. I think I will take the advice I hear underlying in some of the replys and leave it alone, at least for now. It would kind of be like pulling the engine from the Duesenberg and putting a Chevy 350 in it. I am however going to go ahead and measure the barrel wall thickness so I have at least an idea of whats there. I am going to shoot [2 ] ONLY 7/8 oz. Winchester 2 3/4" loads in it to see if there is any cut off of the case mouth and see if it causes the gun to double or show any other problems due to recoil, then order some RST's. The Gunmaker I use it the in house man at Champlin Firearms, and has served his apprenticeship at Marcel Thys before coming here. He is close and reasonable I think ,for the work he does. I'll post pix and spec.s soon. Thanks, Lee.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:23 pm

Yup, I was trying to buy that one and you beat me , (fair and square) Thats the problem being 8000 miles away with no phone. Good for you.
Enjoy it, they are sweet shooters.
hey, the way I look at it is you saved me 4K and I will get a nice one soon enough!!!

lee r moege · Post by **lee r moege** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:47 am

Brian: Sometimes you just get lucky. I have a grandson over there with you now up in the mountains high. A paratrooper, forward observer, special forces type, so you know where that gun will end up eventually I hope. For the rest of you respondents, I measured the bores yesterday. If I were to lengthen the chambers to 2 3/4" I would end up with .082/.084 barrel wall thickness at 2 3/4", not somethig I like. As is, I have .126/.129. A Winchester 23/4" dove and quail measures 21/4" unfired so I think I am happy with not taking any metal out whatsoever. My machinist handbook and steel catalogs show Chrome/Vanadium steel to have better elongation propertys than heat treated 4140 so I am not afraid to shoot 23/4" LOW PRESSURE loads on occasion if need. But as I say I have RST's coming. The barrel bores are .623 Right, and .621 left,choked .009 and .013 for Imp. Cyl./Mod. The barrel wall thickness at the muzzle is .032 Right, and .036 Left. The barrels are #3 but seem light by comparison. Lee.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:03 am

Lee, I'm a bit surprised that you'll lose something like .040" in wall thickness if you stretch the 2-1/2" chamber to 2-3/4" . Well whatever, accurate measuring tools always the story. If the gun was chambered to 2-3/4" by the factory that's one thing, but if not you must have the wall thickness to be sure things will be OK.

I'm happy to hear you decided to get some RST 2-1/2" shells. As Bill wrote, a great product from great people. Silvers

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