Bo Whoop found and for sale at Julia's

[Jim Cloninger]

In my opinion, this gun is not the original BO-Woop. Someone has built this gun to reap the rewards of a rare gun.

[George Lander]

I don't know Jim. If it's not Bo Whoop it sure has fooled a lot of very knowledgeable folks. The stock as shown in Julia's preview has been identified by the stockmaker who made it. The serial numbers match Mr. Callahan's letter. Are you saying that someone produced a Super Fox with fraudulent serial numbers? Julia's is a pretty big outfit and they could be in a heap of trouble selling something that wasn't what it was purported to be.

Just My Humble Opinion......George

[Jim Cloninger]

Yeap.

[Stan Hillis]

Jim, hope your return trip home was a good one. Enjoyed seeing you at Tunica.

Jim, why would anyone go to the trouble to counterfeit a gun this well and then sell it for 50 dollars? And then the new owner let it languish in a closet for over fifty years?

And, why do you believe it is not the real deal?

[waterman]

I think Jim on this I am noy saying this is not the gun some of you guys know guns a lot better than I do. i'm just saying the letters not being engraved and some questinos on the stock. I think this is not the oregnial stock Bo Whoop had a kick pad I think whoever found Bo Whoop with a broken stock will not change it out. I think if the stock was broken whitch we don't know if it was or not the kick pad will still be on or with the gun. Donnie

[Jim Cloninger]

Well, an expert can make any gun you want, including BO-WHOOP. And who has verified the "story" of where the gun has been all these years? There is a great incentive to duplicate this gun. The buyer would be wise to insist on a letter of authenticity!

[Stan Hillis]

Julia's is having a metallurgist of some sort, which they use from time to time, verify that the age of the bluing in the barrel markings (Made for Nash Buckingham, etc.) is the same age as the bluing on the rest of the barrels. This, according to them, would show that the barrel markings are original to the gun. I guess if all the bluing were redone at the time it was supposedly counterfeited the test wouldn't prove anything, unless he can determine the relative age of the bluing. But, it shows they are making efforts to verify the authenticity if the gun.

Time will tell.

[Germantown]

[quote="Stan Hillis"]Julia's is having a metallurgist of some sort, which they use from time to time, verify that the age of the bluing in the barrel markings (Made for Nash Buckingham, etc.) is the same age as the bluing on the rest of the barrels. This, according to them, would show that the barrel markings are original to the gun. I guess if all the bluing were redone at the time it was supposedly counterfeited the test wouldn't prove anything, unless he can determine the relative age of the bluing. But, it shows they are making efforts to verify the authenticity if the gun.

Time will tell. As indeed it will, and as the auction isn't until March 2010 the saga will unfold I am sure. I went back and reviewed the photographs of the Fox in question, on one the right side of top tang, the buttstock wood seems to stand noticably higher than on the left side of the tang.

I also wonder about the rather sloppy spacing and the letter P in the Phila, as compared to the neater stamping on the right barrel breech area.

I agree, in some wise, with the gentleman from CA on this, my gut instinct tells me it is a counterfeited gun. Perhaps after the Julia auction house sold the Czar Nicholas Parker a few years ago for a staggering sum, someone decided to produce the Buckingham shotgun that was lost in 1948. On conjecture at this point, if and when Mr. Julia confirms its authenticity will we know for sure that it is the real article.

[Stan Hillis]

germantown'

Read my initial post on this thread a bit closer and you will see that it doesn't matter a bit how the buttstock is fitted around the tang as far as authenticity of the gun goes. That is NOT the original buttstock, but rather a restock that was done when the gun was "discovered'".

And as to the lettering on the barrel. Several more knowledegable of Foxes than I have commented on here that much of Becker's lettering (stamping) was not perfectly aligned. Consider this. If you were going to counterfeit this gun, and had the ability to pull it off as well as this one would have to have been, would you not possess the ability to stamp the lettering straight? And if the argument is made that it was intentionally misaligned to copy Becker's lack of perfection in stamping letters, then that would be detrimental to the argument that misaligned lettering is an indication of unoriginality.

I hope no one construes any of my posts as being argumentative, or dogmatic. I don't mean to be at all. I have no dog in this hunt. I was just fortunate enough to have been able to examine it extensively and report my impressions. I'm anxious for others here to see it and report their conclusions. I think Dave may get to look at it in Vegas next month.

[Germantown]

Thank you Stan, for the clarification, and no argumentative position taken here. After all, we are gentlemen with a common interest in our Fox shotguns and as years have passed, they become scarcer, especially in an unaltered condition.

I had a reputable gunsmith look over the 20 Sterlingworth before I bought it from a private party, and he determined that it had the original wood and finish, also the barrel blueing. He showed me several Winchesters in the shop that had been refinished and mentioned the 'proud' of the steel fit of the stock on a factory gun, as opposed to a sanded and refinished stock fit. But my Sterlingworth was a $1K range purchase, if this Fox at Julia's is the Buckingham shotgun indeed, I would guess a solid 6 figure price in March.

I have a brother-in-law who is retired from the Treasury Department and was, and still is, an expert on counterfeiting. Granted, in his case it is currency and not firearms, so I showed him the same fotos we have seen here, and also the letters reprinted from Mr. Becker to Mr. Buckingham circa 1950, concerning the second Magnum made for him.

He feels, and I tend to agree with him somewhat, that Mr. Becker made the first Magnum for Mr. Buckingham 25 years earlier, and perhaps a younger hand and pair of eyes, especially on a high graded gun, might have either used a roll stamp or a alignment template. His term was: Would you touch up the Mona Lisa with a Home Depot paintbrush?

I have no dog in this either. I could no more afford this Fox Magnum than I could have the Czar's Parker 12 that Julia's sold a few years ago. I am more of a Doctor Watson to all the learned Sherlock Holmes gentlemen on this site, and that includes you Stan. I hope I am wrong, that this gun is right as the mail, and that the potential new owner might treasure it for what it was born to do, to bring down the 'Tall Ones'- dead bang!!

[ScottG]

Agreed this gun has been made.
I have three Becker Fox's and there are some differences indeed!
I might suggest contacting some of the "old timers" in Mississippi to hear the story behind the original guns ill fate.

Someone's going to pay A LOT of money for a fake.

[scaupman]

x

[eightbore]

In the hopes that we can get ScottG to post pictures of his three Beckers, I will hold off posting my reply to his last post. By the way, I have no opinion on the originality of this Fox. I am waiting to hear what others say about it. I won't be bidding, because I am saving my money for the time that Marshfellow comes off his XHE.

[MARSHFELLOW]

Eightbore,

...........I like your thinkin!!!!!!

Marsh

[SDH]

There are three types of barrel marking being discused here. The ones on this gun were done with individual letter stamps aligned with the top rib. Notice how they do not follow the taper of the barrels, but do follow the edge of the rib as aligned by placing the stamps against a guide resting against the rib.
Also, note how the letters are equally spaced from the rib and each other (relatively), but some of the stamps/letters are skewed or twisted. Otherwise it is a pretty good job of marking with the cheap but convenient stamping method.
(I hate conjecture, but ... notice how the stamping gets worse as if the stamper was getting tired of finding, placing, aligning and striking all those infernal stamps?)

The two other types of markings are roll dies, with lettering placed around a wheel and applied to the barrel so that only one letter touches the barrel at a time, but also machine letter dies as above.

The third method is hand engraving, as is a small chisel cutting essentially free-hand as are the border cuts at the end of these barrels.

I have heard that Becker was an engraver, and a fine craftsman. This lettering is not engraved, nor is it roll-marked as the factory markings are done. It does show some degree of professional care. Not as nicely as I would hope Becker would do... Find some other stamped Becker barrels to compare.


For future reference, my own Fox is well documented....
Best,
Steve