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Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:41 pm
by garvfam
Wow, you guys really know your Fox's.
If it is a 16ga that would answer one question.
But it doesn't answer if the barrels have been hot blued or not... Is there a way to tell for sure.
If it passes the "ring" test will the barrels be OK ?
Serial numbers, What could have happened to have the different fonts ?
I know $395 isn't a lot of money, but its still $395 down the drain and that would get me in a heap of crap with the wife.
Should I buy ?
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:04 pm
by vaturkey
I think the barrels have been hot blued, but its hard to say without the barrels being in hand. Hot blue is a high gloss blue as compared to a more matte finish blue that one see's on classic doubles. Hot blueing isn't good as it subjects the gun to lots of heat which can indeed loosen the rib solder. Also, some of the blueing salts used in hot blueing can get into recesses (think between the barrels, under the rib) and cause rust problems down the road. I'd compare the blueing on the barrels as compared to your other Fox you have and that should give you a good indication of whether or not they have been Hot Blued and take it from there. Hot blueing the barrels would bother me a lot more then the receiver being hot blued.
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:41 pm
by Silvers
Hot bluing is done at 290-295 deg Fahr, as compared with the boiling water for rust bluing at 212 F. The increased temperature isn't a problem for the barrel and is far below the melting point of the ordinary soft solder used for laying the barrel ribs. The issue comes in because the hot bluing solution contains a high % of caustic soda and at that temp will react with the lead and tin in the solder. Rib integrity will always be suspect on any vintage SxS barrel that's been hot blued. I've seen them ring for a while and you smile, and then they pop a rib and as Tom replied there's usually a rusty mess underneath.
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:05 pm
by garvfam
WOW, you guys REALLY know your Fox's
"If" its a 16ga it explains a lot.
But what about the barrels?
Is there a way to tell if they have been hot blued... will the ring test tell if they are good to shoot ?
What about the different fonts on the serial numbers?
Bottom line... should I purchase the shotgun?
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:12 pm
by garvfam
For some reason my response and the last two didn't show up until after I repeated my reply.
If it is a 16ga I will get my money back.
If it is a 20ga what do you suggest ???
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:44 am
by vaturkey
I think I'd go back and take a 16 gauge shell and see if it chambers and at the same time compare the blueing on this gun with your original Sterlingworth and take it from there. If the barrels have been hot blued I'd walk away whether it was a 16 or 20 gauge. Just one person's opinion. If the barrels are not hot blued it's a good price for a 16 gauge. Its a great price for a 20 gauge.
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:21 pm
by garvfam
I'm not sure that I can tell for sure if its been hot blued or not.... It does however make me wonder why it was priced at $395. This is not a gun shop that would not know what they had (20ga Sterlingworth)
I don't want it for collecting, just as a hunting back up to my 16ga.
What are the chances of picking up a set of 20ga barrels for it ?
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:33 pm
by vaturkey
garvfam wrote:I'm not sure that I can tell for sure if its been hot blued or not.... It does however make me wonder why it was priced at $395. This is not a gun shop that would not know what they had (20ga Sterlingworth)
I don't want it for collecting, just as a hunting back up to my 16ga.
What are the chances of picking up a set of 20ga barrels for it ?
Pretty much zero. Even if you could find the barrels they would still need to be fitted to the 16 gauge receiver. The cost of fitting would probably be $250 at min and that wouldn't count the cost of the donor barrels. I think what you have at that gun shop is what you have. Also, assuming that the gun is indeed a 16 Gauge, the current forearm wood would be fitted for 16 gauge barrel outside diameter and wouldn't most likely work with a 20 gauge barrel (smaller outside diameter).
There have been both factory and custom small bore Foxes made with two different gauge (20 and 16) barrels, but those guns have included two different forearm, one for the 20 gauge barrels and another for the 16 gauge barrels.
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:01 pm
by garvfam
What happens if the barrels have been hot blued and the gun is fired, is it a safety issue?
Can they be repaired ?
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:53 pm
by vaturkey
garvfam wrote:What happens if the barrels have been hot blued and the gun is fired, is it a safety issue?
Can they be repaired ?
IMO is shouldn't be a safety issue. I'd certainly check and make sure the barrels ring. As I said before take your original 16 gauge with you and compare the blueing of that gun with this gun and take it from there. Sounds like if you aren't comfortable with things then walk away.
FWIW, If it was me and they were hot blued I'd walk away.
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:26 pm
by Twice Barrel
I can't tell from the photos but the receiver looks to have been blued. Also the engraving looks to have been heavily polished as have barrels. If the receiver is blued I think you can be pretty much assured the whole gun was hot blued.
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:00 pm
by garvfam
First.... thank you all sooooo much for all the help.
I stopped at the gun shop on my way to take my son to his hockey game.
We took a 20ga & 16ga hull to check the chambers. You were correct, It is a 16ga !
I have a very nice 1927 16ga sterlingworth that I used for all bird hunting. So I don't really need one, however...
I spoke with the gunshop owners son about this shotgun.... He is selling it as part of an estate sale (so it must be sold). He set the price low because he has to move the gun, the blued receiver and the fact that it is not a phily gun. He also agrees that it was probably hot blued. We pulled off the barrels and hit them with a knuckle and they rang like a bell.
He offered an immediate refund as his dopey brother tagged it a 20 ga.
He also told me that he would give it to me for $350 and I could take it before paying him and shoot clays until the barrel glows orange. If its OK, I can give him $350... if there is any problems he would give me my money back.
My question is... will the barrel problem show up right away?
If it does show up later can they be repaired, and at what price ?
Thank you VERY much for all the help !!!!!
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:32 am
by vaturkey
garvfam wrote:First.... thank you all sooooo much for all the help.
I stopped at the gun shop on my way to take my son to his hockey game.
We took a 20ga & 16ga hull to check the chambers. You were correct, It is a 16ga !
I have a very nice 1927 16ga sterlingworth that I used for all bird hunting. So I don't really need one, however...
I spoke with the gunshop owners son about this shotgun.... He is selling it as part of an estate sale (so it must be sold). He set the price low because he has to move the gun, the blued receiver and the fact that it is not a phily gun. He also agrees that it was probably hot blued. We pulled off the barrels and hit them with a knuckle and they rang like a bell.
He offered an immediate refund as his dopey brother tagged it a 20 ga.
He also told me that he would give it to me for $350 and I could take it before paying him and shoot clays until the barrel glows orange. If its OK, I can give him $350... if there is any problems he would give me my money back.
My question is... will the barrel problem show up right away?
If it does show up later can they be repaired, and at what price ?
If they were hot blued they can be repaired if the rib or ribs separate somewhere down the road, if the barrels aren't a rusty mess under the rib. Regarding cost, relaying the ribs also requires re-rust blueing the barrels. I search on line and saw a quote of $550 to do both. I'd say that's the cost if a rib lets go at some point down the road.
Thank you VERY much for all the help !!!!!
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:32 am
by garvfam
So.... Do you think its worth picking it up at that price.
A friend told me " you'd have $350 worth of parts for your other 16 at the very least"
Re: Savage Fox question
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:24 am
by vaturkey
garvfam wrote:So.... Do you think its worth picking it up at that price.
A friend told me " you'd have $350 worth of parts for your other 16 at the very least"
No idea what the parts are worth, but suspect your friend might be correct, if you can find a buyer for them. FWIW, you can't sell the parts on this forum unless you become a member of the Fox Collectors Association.