Fox Collectors

Thanks all for reading my ramblings on this thread and for your comments/perspectives which are helpful. Again, let me preface by saying the following are my personal comments; I cannot write for the Board of Directors to include our webmaster. However I will reference this thread at the next BD meeting, and see where others are at on some of the suggestions.

Meanwhile I'd like to offer my big take-away that for some reason(s) there's a common feeling that this site is a gun forum and not really a gun using forum. That is incorrect, at least I think it is. Maybe that's because of our name "Fox Collectors". Another possible reason may be that many posts seem to highlight the collecting aspects (originality, condition, scarcity, etc) above all else. Will this gun card or letter? And if not, why post anything about it because others may not be interested? It may be that by choice or default that's become the primary focus even though our Mission includes promoting shooting and using. However at the same time we've actively asked for, and seen and enjoyed occasional posts on the hunting, shooting and gunsmithing aspects. Same with posts by gents who are justifyably proud to get Grandpa's old Fox back out even though the barrels and stock are cut off, and Gramps had some knotches carved in the butt. Not as many, but here nonetheless. They are scattered through the open forums and as well as on those available to Members. Beyond the advertising and sales rules, and common respect and courtesy, I don't recall anyone ever writing that something that was even remotely Fox related, was inappropriate. So, in that light I'm not sure if we need additional "categories". That may be helpful to some but methinks it will dilute what posts we do get, and have readers scanning through additional forums to find the new posts. But as I wrote here earlier I will bring that suggeston up at the next BD meeting.

In any case I want to thank those who took time to reply and help this "renewal" of sorts. I sure hope to be able to read and enjoy more Foxy stuff in the months to come. Frank Silvers

I have read these posts and have refrained from replying, thinking someone would reveal the real reason behind the lack of interest in this forum. As I have mentioned before, more than a few times, the board of directors have not fulfilled their promise to promote interest in the history and provenance of Fox guns. They have restricted access to the order cards, cards which the donor requested be used for research by interested AHFCA members. The donor will not get in a conflict with our BOD because he is a gentleman who expected his donation would benefit the membership without hoops to jump through. He does not want a fight. The BOD have not done anything to use these order cards to promote research. They have only used them for revenue. Board members have full access to the cards and members have no access. Serious researchers have to become board members in order to access the cards, a ridiculous requirement when you consider that a serious researcher has so much to offer. To return to Frank's original post, let me say that I don't see any change on the horizon for this website or this organization until the stated purpose of our organization is fulfilled. William Murphy

Wife and I just signed up for expanded TV cable coverage and I'm enjoying the old Dragnet shows, among some others. While watching Dragnet, I was reminded of the oft quote by Sgt. Joe Friday...... "just the facts ma'am".

While I don't think the current record card policy has much, if anything, to do with the subject of this thread, I'll relate the FACTS anyway. In December 2009 during my first term as a Fox Director, I was asked by then Exec Director Craig Larter to contact the card "donor" and review what the BD's were then considering as a new policy for card lookups. I had previously met the donor (Mr R W Harris), so we knew each other before my call. I explained what the BD's were thinking as regards one free card lookup per year for members, and a fee for any card lookups beyond one/year. We discussed this fully including several options. There was no discussion on making the card copies available unrestricted for research or such. Mr Harris was supportive of a policy which would help fund the long term financial viability of the Fox Collectors Association, and he told me, in net, that the BD's should do what we thought best. Mr Harris gave me the green light for the Association, and I related his input to my fellow BD's. After some further discussions the Board went ahead to implement the record card policy for Members. Those are the facts. Frank Silvers

eightbore wrote: Board members have full access to the cards and members have no access. William Murphy

Sounds like some animals on this farm are "MORE" equal than others. How Orwellian!

I am not and have not been on the AHFCA BOD.

The entire card library is available for $2000.

A card for a particular gun, if in the AHFCA card library, is available to AHFCA membrs for $25

There is a "Card of the Month" on the AHFCA member's forum.

The BOD are mainly the founders of AHFCA and are all unpaid volunteers. They look up cards, answer questions, provide much detailed information, again as unpaid volunteers.

I have seen almost identical posts by EightBore on the Parker forum. I am not and have not been on the PGCA board. Apparently there is a difference of opinion between EightBore, the PGCA BOD and the AHFCA BOD, all honorable men, about access to collector's assocations' factory records.

What cards have to do with the topic of the thread beats me.'

I believe the AHFCA member's only forum and this forum should be merged and a separate AHFCA member's only forum created for the buying and selling of Fox guns.

Best,

Mike

Mike, you are quite perceptive in realizing that I have had differences of opinion with groups of honorable men about various topics. However, describing them as honorable men is a low blow in that the comment somehow detracts from the honor of my motives. My motives are extremely honorable. As soon as I got my feet wet in both organizations, I wrote checks for life membership and opened my research files to the members at large and also to the organizations. I participated in the copying of the Parker Brothers records and continue to participate in the sharing of information with members of the PGCA. I volunteered to continue on the research team after the records were copied. When the time comes, my research file will be transferred to someone who will share it as I have. Before AHFCA obtained the order cards from Mr. Harris, I was in contact with Mr. Harris about transferring the card file to our organization. We discussed various scenarios. I also tried to procure the second set of cards from another source, also to be made available to the AHFCA. Before the forming of AHFCA, I had access to a card set and made that information available to collectors through an employer. The truth is that I made an executive decision to share the information without ever collecting the fee. It wasn't that big a deal. We were "in business to make friends, not money." Make all the comments you wish about this thread and it's relationship to cards, but leave out the thinly disquised digs about "honor". Bill Murphy

Bill the first time I wrote the sentence I wrote "between honorable men." Then the PGCA posts came to mind and i re-wrote the sentence and paragraph it to try to include them. I consider you an honorable man and the inferred insult was caused by ineptitude on my part, not concious or sub-concious intent to slight.

Please excuse me.

I have gone back and edited the offending sentence.

Best,

Mike

Thanks for the reply, Mike. However, I'm going to let my post stand as is because some readers may think that I am nothing but a thorn in the side of both organizations, when I am no such thing. Please consider leaving your post unedited also. I wish the best for both organizations, and work hard for both organizations, but will not ignore situations that have existed over the years in both organizations that are not pleasing to those who are paying attention. I am friends and collecting and researching buddies with board members past and present in both organizations and will continue to be. However, I will stand up for the members in either organization when I see a bad situation that newer members may not understand. I also consider myself an unpaid volunteer, just not as heavily utilized as the members of the boards.

I have one Fox gun, a Sterlingworth that I inherited. I have been a member for two years now, just having renewed. I have learned much from the forum about Fox guns and as this is my first double gun, it has been very beneficial. I shoot trap with my Sterlingworth a few times a year and am looking forward to doing some hunting, but don't have a lot of time for that. At some point, I may pick up another Fox. But I don't have the dough to be a true collector. Maybe I am more of a shooter who likes a nice gun. I like to read what is going on occasionally. And maybe I will be able to get to some AHFCA events sometime. This forum has taught me a good deal about the care and use of my Fox and it is interesting to learn from the other members. I like to hear about hunting trips and other useful information. I still want to try some grouse hunting up in PA sometime when I get some time off from the kids!

Don Bonsteel