Fox Collectors

Diary of a Fox

Dear Diary,

I've no idea how many 1 1/4 ounce 3 3/4 DE duck and pheasant loads I shot in the 80 years before I came to my current home. However many it was, I spent at least 50 years shooting "modern" ammo before I became a high volume target gun. But I keep careful records now and get frequent maintenance check-ups. My records show that since Jan, 2008 I have digested a little over 5,400 Remington and Winchester factory target loads and over 27,000 handloads suggested to be 9,100 psi. I'm still as firm and tight as I ever was.

G'night! Love, Anna Nicole.

Dear Ms Anna, I just knew you would jump in here. Sounds like you were born in 1930 or so with a Chromox frame and those nice heavy Chromox toobies, 2 weights aren't they?

Let's not keep secrets gal... did you tell everyone you had a recase job? Any problems with parts malfunctioning while on stage? Seems to me I heard something like that. I sure hope your Mom born in 1905 or so isn't trying to do the same gigs with you. I see my friend Twiggy once in a while; she has a plain Jane frame with 4 weights and just did too much of a good thing. Sad to say she's at the Shady Rest home. Yours truly, Blondi

P.S. that 9100 psi sounds fine for a 1930 gal, as I read here earlier the SAAMI max went to 10,000 psi in/around 1929.

This has become a very interesting and informative thread. Being a newcomer to Fox lore, I didn't realize that there was a difference in the strength of Foxes from ~ 1905 to ~ 1930 as well as a change in the pressure standards of SAAMI, although it makes sense these things would evolve. Can anyone give a chronological time-line of improvements/changes in guns, perhaps by year or serial number, against the changes in SAAMI standards ? Frank, since you seem to be quite knowledgeable about this. I'm sure there are other newcomers who would find this enlightening too.
Oh, I thought Anna Nicole was a blonde, not a redhead

Sid, yes an interesting thread. The subject always precipitates people from both camps coming forward with their views. For me it's very simple: IMO it makes more sense to be shooting < 7,000 psi 12 gage loads with 1 ounce at 1150 or so fps, than to shoot ~ 11,500 psi loads with with 1 ounce at 1150 fps. Likewise with heavier shot weights. Yeah we can save a few bucks buying modern factory high pressure shells at Wally Mart but is it worth it if you're going to shoot your Fox a lot?

Regarding changes over time, the only three data points I have for service pressure were stated earlier: 1905 loads were at 7,000 psi max, 1929 data shows that max was 10,000 psi, and current SAAMI max is 11,500. All for 12 gage 2-3/4" shells. I know there's a difference in pressure testing technology over time but the figures stated here are close enough for me. I'm sure this will evoke responses from amateur ballisticians citing the deltas between modern transducer technology numbers with LUP's etc. etc.

In 1905 all Foxes were made with plain low carbon steel frames, casehardened. Chromox ALLOY steel with higher tensile strength was intro'd with the smallbores in the early nineteens, and the 12 gage frames were changed to Chromox over a few years. I do have Rockwell testing on HE Grade Super Fox frames confirming they were harder than regular Chromox frames circa the same time frame. This suggests more elaborate heat treatment to enhance tensile strength for the Super X type shells just coming on the market.

I hope this is helpful to our readers. Silvers

Silvers wrote: Shotshells loaded to the current SAAMI max of 11,500 psi were not in use when any Fox shotgun was made. Silvers

Now Mr. Silvers I see one glaring flaw in your statement. Before the 1960s pressure was measured not in psi as it is today but in cup. If you do a bit of research you will find that there is no direct conversion of pressure measured by the crusher system and pressure measured in psi by the piezo system. Sorry I don't have a SAAMI pressure comparison chart for shot shells but here are a couple examples of pressure measurement difference for common rifle cartridges. 30-06 C. U. P. = 50,000 / PSI = 60,000. 270 Winchester C. U. P. = 52,000 / PSI = 65,000. Both of these measured values fall within SAAMI standards, pressures have not changed only the method of measurement. So a 10,000 max pressure measured in CUP in the 1930's is very well likely to be equivalent of 11,500 psi measured by today's standard.

Yes, Mr. Twice, as I stated earlier I am aware of the difference in pressure measurement technologies. But while you've taken me to task by cutting and pasting my statements, and claiming a "glaring flaw", you used examples with rifle cartridges measured in "cup" (copper units of pressure) which employed a copper crusher because of the relatively high pressures involved. In fact, more research will show that shotgun shell pressures were measured in 'lup" (lead units of pressure) with a lead crusher. My earlier post referred to the LUP (lup). I agree there will be a difference between shotshells measured in lup units and compared with instantaneus transducers, and I have stated that. However for all practical purposes in this thread we are talking the pressure delta between 7,000 for older Foxes and the use of modern 11,500 SAAMI max shells. That 4,500 delta between lup units and modern psi is significant no matter how it's measured.

Unfortunately it seems this thread has taken a personal turn for some underlying reason(s) and thus I will bid our readers adieu on this topic. Have a good day everyone. Frank Silvers

Diary of a Fox

Dear Diary,

Well, I swore off the junk food.... eating 16lbs of Red Dot gave my triggers a touch of constipation.
All those dirty undigetsed red flakes would give any girl indigestion, wouldn't they?

Funny how how some fella would think my recase, reblue or retstock would have anything to do with that.
Anyway, seems whether a girl has had a few "enhancements" is nobody's business but hers and the fella she's with. I wonder what would motivate a guy to speculate about such things out loud?

Well, can't loose sleep over every crass Joe you come across.

G'night! love, Anna Nicole.

P.S.
I can't wait for the Big Party! I want to count all the RST empties at the Bo Whoop station!

Twice Barrel wrote: So a 10,000 max pressure measured in CUP in the 1930's is very well likely to be equivalent of 11,500 psi measured by today's standard.

I agree, except as noted: CUP was used for pressuress in the 30-60,000 PSI range and LUP for shotgun cartridges. Here are some better examples of discrepancies in LUP and PSI...

I have several vintages of “Handloader’s Guide For Smokeless Powders” by the IMR Powder Co.

In 1989 all of the shotshell pressures were listed as LUP.
In 1999 all of the shotshell target loads were listed as PSI while the field loads were still LUP.
In 2000 all of the shotshell data was listed as PSI.

By perusing data from 1989 and 2000, I was able to come up with examples of identical recipes tested by both methods:

In the 20ga Target AA Hull:

1989…W209 primer, 16.0 grains PB, WAA20 wad, 7/8 oz shot, 1180 fps @ 10,200 LUP
2000…………………………………………identical components………… ……1195 fps @ 11,700 PSI

In the 12ga Target AA Hull:

1989…W209 primer, 19.0 grains 700X, WAA12 wad, 1 1/8 oz, 1200 fps @ 9200 LUP
2000…………………………………………identical components……………… 1190 fps @ 10,800 PSI

And my favorite, in the 16ga (Win AA type) Compression Formed Hull:

1989…W209 primer, 20.0 grains 800X, SP16 wad, 1 1/8 oz, 1175 fps @ 8800 LUP
2000…………………………………………identical components……………… 1210 fps @ 11,000 PSI

For the identical loads, the “pressure number” increased by 14.7%, 17.4% and 25% respectively.

A perusal of the published literature will reveal that chamber pressures measured in LUP, and erroneously reported as PSI, will consistently err on the low side. The above published data are examples of that. Furthermore, it should be clear from just the 3 examples cited that a 1920's era maximum service pressure of 9500LUP could actually equate to 10,897 - 11,875 PSI peak chamber pressure.

So, did SAAMI really increase the recommended service pressure when they upped it to 11,500 PSI? or did they just discover that the 9500 LUP number was really more or less equivalent to 11,500 PSI? Until I hear otherwise from a professional ballistician, I'll believe so.

Thank you all for the info.
I do all my target shooting with reloads so it is noproblem to load low pressure loads, and my old Winchester model 12s and Beretta over and under will shoot them just fine also.
My Sterlingworth is a Philly gun made in 1930 so it may be a moot point.
I have a lot of card and fiber wads left over from the 50s, and can get a lot of once fired federal paper. Can I use the old reciepes or have the powder and primers change to much?
Thought it might be fun to shoot some olds lods at this summers side x side challenge.

What powder and primers do you want to use? I have a Hercules reloading manual from 1988 that lists load data for Federal Paper target rounds using Red Dot for 1 ounce loads and Red Dot and Green Dot for 1 1/8th ounce loads. The 1 1/8th ounce load using Green Dot looks real nice at 1,145 fps and 6,900 psi using a Pacific Versalite wad. But I bet it would work real fine if you dropped back to 1 ounce of shot and a bit of filler.

In the fifty's and early 60s the standard was 19 grains red dot, nitro over powder wad, fiber wadsto the correct hieght for the crimp, 1 1/8 oz shot, 50lbs wad pressure, and any primer, no plastic wad collum.
was wondering if I could still make these loads?
I know it's not practical but what the heck, I'm so old no one expects me to do things like any one else.

My Lymans Shotshell Handbook 1st edition (1969) lists a Red Dot load using 21.0 grains Federal 209 primer (I don't know if Federal still makes the 209 or has switched totally to 209As) One Alcan Flite-Max #6 (I'm sure you could sub any other fiber wad for that). Velocity is listed at 1290 fps and chamber pressure is way up there at 10,200 L.U.P. but if you change the powder charge to 22.5 grains of Green Dot the velocity drops to 1260 fps but the chamber pressure drops to 8,300 L.U.P. I think if you would drop the powder down to 20 grains of Green Dot you would probably have a very nice load at about 1150 fps and chamber pressure in the 7500 psi range. If you go this route or use any data that is over 40 years old I would recommend that you send 3 loaded rounds that the components have been hand weiged to Tom Armbrust for ballistic testing. Toms contact information is (815) 385-0037 and his address is Ballistic Research, 1108 May Ave., McHenry, IL 60050-8918. Tom only charrges $5.00 per round for testing and to me that is money very well spent to save a good old gun and perhaps a piece of hide.

Thank you.
I actually have some of those old alcan wads, but federal 209 primers are gone the way of the Remington 57s.

This is always a good discussion,
Does anyone know what the pressure of the AA Low Noise Low recoil loads are??
A friend gave me some when they wouldn't cycle his autoloader in dove season. That
kind of info is not easy to aquire from the factory. I load most of my stuff but they
would be a quick way out! Thanks, John