Fox vs Lefever 2021 Challenge

[jolly bill]

While it may not be my place to ask for a survey, I don't think Daryl and Steve would mind if I did that. Hence I'm asking for replies here with thoughts on how this annual Fox - Lefever Challenge event can be made attractive to more of our members who live close enough to be at the annual Northeast SxS event at Hausmann's.

frank

Hi Frank,

I would like to throw in my nickel's worth and give you my perspective.

I got there at 9:15 AM Thursday morning and left at 2:00 PM Saturday afternoon. Every minute of that was great.

I never fired a shot however. My intentions were but I never did. A friend I shoot with here at home was going to be there but, surprisingly, didn't make it on Thursday I was thinking because of the wet weather. He didn't make it Friday either so I suspect his occasional health issues kept him home. We would have shot the course and/or 5 Stand.

I wanted to at least shoot 10 bucks worth at Bo Whoop and maybe another 10 or 20 on the Baby Whoop but I didn't. I think being a little shy in that respect didn't help. I really should have, as I can miss those dam things as easy as most.

I wanted to shoot but the biggest reason for going was to just socialize with a great bunch of people I knew would be there. And that I did.

I had offered to help Daryl at Bo Whoop/Letterman but never did because I was out socializing. I sent him my humblest apologies and he graciously accepted it.

But to your question ". . . on how this annual Fox - Lefever Challenge event can be made attractive . . .", would be to have fewer tire kickers like me and have more who aggressively want to shoot, like our good friend Jeff/Steggie and many others.

Just one person's point of view.

And thanks for everyone there for making it as great as it is. Anxiously looking forward to another one.

Jolly

[fox-admin]

I have a few friends that attended Hausmann's, they are AHFCA members, shoot Fox guns at the event but just have zero interest in the L-F challenge and have no desire to stay until 2pm on Saturday. They come to enjoy a great weekend with close friends, shoot a couple of rounds (don't keep score), shop, drink beer and snack in the parking lot.
A couple of logistical improvements my help encourage more participants. Why take the card to the booth to be signed? If someone is not a member just void the completed card.. Why not have 3 score card drop off points, the BW, the office and the booth. Why not schedule the challenge early Saturday morning so guys can get on the road. Most guys are shooting the main event on Saturday anyway. Just a few random ideas.

[DarylC]

Thanks for the suggestions Craig.

I understand the boys just wanting to shoot, enjoy the company and drink beer. Nothing wrong with that. It wouldn't be a bad thing if the entire event was just that. Just the BW event to raise some funds and spend the rest of the time BS'ing and drinking beer. Believe me I'd be right there. I'll be doing just that at Mike's shoot in July in the Grotto and hoping you all join us as you have in the past. Of course everyone is invited not just FOC (friends of Craig)

As far as dropping off cards, it probably would complicate things by having 3 drop off points. The BOD could discuss this but if everyone thinks it could work- so be it.

Finally, I like the idea of having the challenge early Sat. morning if we could work around the main event. That normally starts at 0900 and I'm not sure we could get shooters organized early enough to allow them to shoot the challenge if selected then allow them enough time to shoot the main if they were so inclined to do so.

The important point here is we need suggestions from the members. I know not all of our members participate here on the forum so I'll reach out to Mike to include a notice in the next newsletter. No suggestion is dumb so please contribute guys.

[Mike of the Mountain]

I would avoid Saturday AM for the shoot-off. The Main Event takes precedence in the AM and it would effect turnout. Maybe shoot the F-L on Friday afternoon. That way the guys who usually leave Saturday AM can shoot if they qualify but the negative is not everyone has their qualifying rounds turned in yet and anyone going to the Parker banquet (such as myself) needs to be back home by 3:00 to be on the road by 4:00. That said, the banquet may be held at another time/place next so it really could be a moot point. My other suggestion would be to do the F-L shoot-off at noon Saturday. Most of us are finished shooting the Main by then. You can then run the BW/WCL shoot-offs after the F-L as there are fewer shooters in the BW/WCL shoot-offs.

[fox-admin]

Good input Mike.
Another problem to consider is a small percentage of members check the forums or are even members of the forums. The announcements about the event only takes place on the forums so we're missing many potential participants. A couple of "lawn posters" at the entrance, BW station, etc. may work.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Don't forget the AHFCA newsletter.

[fox-admin]

Just thinking more about this event and the whole atmosphere of Hausmann's of friendly competition, why not a Elsie, Parker, Lefever, Fox challenge with the same format as this years F-L challenge and a 5 stand shoot off?? The Hausmann Cup!!! Highest team total score on the 5 stand wins.

[Silvers]

Anyone remember when there was an effort by Fox to be included in the annual Challenge match at the Southern SxS, and we were told by Parker and LC Smith powers to be to (idiomatically) go pound sand? Just sayin.

Also, not speaking for Lefever but from things I've read I'd say they haven't been welcomed with open arms by one of those makers. frank

[DarylC]

Just thinking more about this event and the whole atmosphere of Hausmann's of friendly competition, why not a Elsie, Parker, Lefever, Fox challenge with the same format as this years F-L challenge and a 5 stand shoot off?? The Hausmann Cup!!! Highest team total score on the 5 stand wins.

Wouldn't that be fun. Unfortunately we would need another half day to pull off something like that. Great idea Craig, but getting shooters to commit to shooting on a team is like herding cats. I think it was you that pointed out that most of your Vanderbilt guys just want to shoot for fun , drink beer and have snacks. Great idea. Less than 10% of shooters attending are serious competition types and they usually dominate the competitions. Hopefully our new method of choosing teams will encourage more shooters to participate.

Anyone remember when there was an effort by Fox to be included in the annual Challenge match at the Southern SxS, and we were told by Parker and LC Smith powers to be to (idiomatically) go pound sand? Just sayin.

Also, not speaking for Lefever but from things I've read I'd say they haven't been welcomed with open arms by one of those makers. frank

Sadly Frank the Lefevers, Bakers, Ithacas and to a certain extent the Foxes are considered the red headed stepchildren of the vintage gun community. Maybe we should just have a vintage gun shoot without all the competitions, just for fun and include all vintage guns with a cut off date of say 1950 or so. All pumps, semi-autos made before that date are welcome. If shooters want to compete they can wager amongst themselves for HOA on the squad to win lunch. That way friends of the same skill level can shoot together. The other way, which would gain more shooters, is to lower the cost of shooting to what most people pay on their local courses.

[Mike of the Mountain]

There is already an event pitting Parker-Fox-Lefever-LCS-Ithaca and that is the Manufacturer's Cup at the Northeast SxS Challenge at Rock Mountain in July. Fox has failed to field a team of five shooters for the shoot-off the past two years and that is at the event that also hosts the AHFCA Big Bore and Small Bore Championships.

As for being excluded from the Smith-Parker Challenge at Sanford and Georgetown, the number of shooters qualifying for the Challenge events is staggering and takes a lot of time to run everyone through and then do the 20 man shoot-off makes adding any other manufacturers undoable.

[Silvers]

There is already an event pitting Parker-Fox-Lefever-LCS-Ithaca and that is the Manufacturer's Cup at the Northeast SxS Challenge at Rock Mountain in July. Fox has failed to field a team of five shooters for the shoot-off the past two years and that is at the event that also hosts the AHFCA Big Bore and Small Bore Championships. [snip].

Fox has also failed to field teams at previous events here and there. Hard to understand for someone who remembers us bringing out 25-35 Fox shooters and that was when we only had 200+ members. As I recall we now have something like 440 members. But to use an idiom, you can't get horses to drink even at a good water trough. And while I prefer to compete with my Foxes I've been gradually moving into shooting Parkers to be able to share the enthusiasm and rub elbows with others of like mien. Same with Syracuse Lefevers. Hate to say that but just sayin.

frank

[fox-admin]

Frank we all appreciate all your efforts and the two other AHFCA Shooting Chairman to encourage Fox owners to enter the various shooting competitions. Our membership just isn't motivated to participate, even with plenty of encouragement. I support Daryl's new approach to qualifying for the L-F Championship and hope with time and understanding the participation will improve. I hope you stay involved with the AHFCA.

[Silvers]

Thanks Craig, as you know I signed up as our first Life Member and like you am one of the founding Life Members. I'm not bailing on Fox guns nor the AHFCA. Fox will always be my first choice at SxS shooting events but if it looks like a scarcity of Fox shooters I'll go with one of the other makers to be able to compete and not just shoot. Sad but that's the way things have evolved, and as they say you can't push a rope. frank

[fox-admin]

Frank: I think the world of vintage SxS collectors and shooters is a big tent with varied interests, there is a small but dedicated group of competitive (great) shooters. Just look at top guns in every event in the last decade, mostly very familiar names. I would say 99% of attendees at our shoots are supportive and enthusiastic of the competition, but that doesn't necessary mean they want or feel competent to participate at that level. I love to watch ML baseball and tour golf but I have no ability to compete at any level. So just because many of our members elect not to compete does not mean they are not enthusiastic supporters of the AHFCA and our top shooters. We all enjoy you top shooters battle it out for the bling.

[eightbore]

I think the solution is for us to discontinue the manufacturer's competitions. It is a real disappointment for me to be left in the dust when I show up for a competition with my Tobin.