Help dating Ansley H. Fox Grade C

[jcherry]

I have recently purchased an Ansley H. Fox 12ga SxS from a local estate sale. The seral number is 1210 with a "C" after. Could anyone tell me what year this gun was made? I've searched several different forums online and the oldest serial number I've found was in the high 5000's.
It has a recoil pad on it that needs to be replaced. The current pad looks like a Silver's with a piece of leather on the back. I haven't cleaned it up yet, but here are some pics of the gun. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Researcher]

The present working theory is that the frames with serial numbers 1 to 3000 were made for the A.H. Fox Gun Co. when it was at Wayne & Bristol Streets, 1905-06. In late 1906 the A.H. Fox Gun Co. bought the factory of the failed Philadelphia Arms Co. that Ansley H. Fox left in December 1904. The next batch of frames for the new factory on N. 18th Street & Windrim Ave. appear to begin with serial number 7000.

I see several anomalies in the number 1210. First it has the late-style C-Grade engraving. One would expect a C-Grade in that serial number range to have what is referred to as the "banner" style engraving --

A gun in the 1210 serial number range should have this three-date patent stamp on the left watertable --

1277 01a 3 patent date stamp.jpg (52.59 KiB) Viewed 2009 times

It also appears to have a safety slide of a much later C-Grade. Should look like this --

1209 01 B-Grade.jpg (48.82 KiB) Viewed 2009 times

I wonder if 1210 was a frame that never got manufactured into a gun at Wayne & Bristol Streets and sometime after 1914 got finished up at the factory at North 18th Street?!?

[Jeff S]

Thanks for all of that information Dave. I thought that looked like 2nd generation engraving also.

Remember when "Fieldsports" in Traverse City advertised a C grade that they claimed was a 1906 (#2667) and yet it had the 2nd generation engraving? It seems to me that you mentioned the patent stamp on that one too. Jeff

[Researcher]

The thing with 2667 is that there is the gun you saw, Jeff, and also one with the "banner" style engraving. The gun you examined has the 7-date patent stamp as does the B-Grade 1515 which has the second style B-Grade engraving and other later features.

[jcherry]

I don't see any Patd' stamps. Here are some more pics of the gun, including the safety.

[Researcher]

The gun has some features of the Wayne & Bristol Streets era, the extractor with no guide pins and it doesn't have the FOX PROOF stamp on the barrel flats which the company began touting in the in 1908 "Campfire" Catalog --

Krupp barrels were what A.H. Fox Gun Co. used until they began transitioning to Chromox with the introduction of the 16- & 20-gauges in 1912. They continued using up Krupp tubes even after The Great War.

The checkering on the forearm wood also appears to be of the earlier C-Grade style.

1210 is quite the enigma!!

[jcherry]

When did the later style C engraving begin? So this receiver was possibly made early on 1905 but never assembled into a shotgun and most likely built into a gun around 1915? I also have the case that originally came with this shotgun. I'm currently having a gunsmith here in TN fit and shape a Silver's pad to the gun to replace the deteriorated pad that was on it.

[Researcher]

The oval style C-Grade engraving first appears in the third A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalog, the first with the North 18th Street & Windrim Avenue address, which the company moved into by December 1906.

Anything we can come up with is pure speculation. A scenario I'm pondering is that some damage happened to 1210's original 1906 vintage frame and sometime after 1914 the barrels and forearm were fitted to a new frame.

[jcherry]

Thanks so much for all your help.

[Laribus]

All matching numbers?

[jcherry]

Yes all matching numbers

[Silvers]

Nice Fox! The groove in the lower short rib is much longer than necessary for an extractor gun circa 1905-06 which reinforces Dave's comment that your C Grade was assembled years later after ejectors came into the features lineup. The long groove is necessary for the ejector stems and is superfluous with an extractor.

Those earlier SW Silver's pads were usually only ~ 3/4" thick with leather facing and if you decide to replace it I suggest you have your 'smith modify a modern Silver's pad which will be nominal 1" thickness and make it 3/4" or so. Also have him/her fit the base of the pad to the existing butt surface without trying to "true it up" by sanding perfectly straight. frank

[Researcher]

The groove in the lower short rib is much longer than necessary for an extractor gun circa 1905-06

I'm not sure I understand what Frank is saying here. The early guns had the little square base to the forearm loop, as seen here on 494 --

Later they went to the reinforced forearm loop -- seen on both extractor --

and ejector guns --

I suspect a lot of those early little square forearm loops came loose and when customers took advantage of the Guarantee --

and sent their gun back to the factory for repair they got the reinforced loop.

[Silvers]

Dave, what looked to me on the one pic as a lower short rib is probably the long tail of a reinforced barrel loop which of course was compatible with extractor and ejector guns. I know the frame serial number doesn’t indicate date of shipment but as I recall ejectors weren’t available as early as serial number 1210 might otherwise indicate. Hence again I do believe this C Fox was assembled years later. frank

[Researcher]

Also, on the present frame of 1210 the juncture of the top-tang with the frame doesn't have the wide radius we see on the early guns --

As time passed that juncture seems to get a smaller and smaller radius --

until in the late Savage years it is very nearly square --

That is the impetus for my theory about damage to 1210's original frame and the present frame being a repair/replacement.