Western 1 5/8 oz. wad column

[67galaxie]

Stan I don't know how you keep those out of the HE

Let's remember that almost all 3 IN. HE's were made and regulated for the 12g/1-3/8 ounce load. Same with LC Smith Long Range guns made for the period 3-inch progressive shell. Perhaps either/both guns made in limited numbers after 1935 were intended for the much heavier 1-5/8 ounce shells but I've never seen an maker advert or other documentation to that effect. To be sure many of the duo were fired with whatever the hardware was stocking to include 1-5/8 ounce boomers and I've done that myself in earlier years but nowadays I'll load up with 1-3/8 ounce loads when hunting with vintage guns, and wary game and long range are anticipated. Remember that mass of payload and speed equate to recoil and I dare say a large percentage of nimrods aren't accomplished shots with extra heavy loads and especially so at long range. frank

This is another example of why we all love and appreciate you Frank. Thanks as always for the info and help. I dont know if I will ever shoot 3" shells out of those guns. There are so many variations of 2 3/4 these days.

[Researcher]

When I got my Super-Fox in August 1963, it came with three boxes of post WW-II Remington ARROW EXPRESS 12-gauge 3-inch, 1 5/8-ounce, Magnum shells.

I shot up the box of #4s and the box of #5s. Still have part of the box of #6s.

I usually had a 3-incher in the left barrel with a 1 1/4-ounce load in the right. In my young life I patterned the gun with both the 1 5/8-ounce and 1 7/8-ounce loads. I got some 85% patterns with 1 5/8-ounce #5s in WW Mark-5 shells. With the 1 7/8-ounce of #4s I got very patchy patterns. I was probably over forty before I ever heard of the 12-gauge 3-inch 1 3/8-ounce loads. Certainly, never notice such on the ammo shelves at Warshal's Sporting Goods.

[Silvers]

On my first duck/goose trip to the southern tip of James Bay in Northern Ontario, I and my buds all had Remington 1100 Magnums and we took a ton of 3-inch/1-7/8 ounce loads for the tall ones. The import quantity was limited and we played dumb and stashed most of them in the boot of my Ford Convertible. The daily bag limits were very liberal and the Cree guide's family were processing the birds and selling the down to the Hudson Bay store there in town. Needless to say we all had headaches from shooting those heavy boomers even in the gas guns and were favoring the limited number of lighter loads we had taken along. By the next year I was toting a Winchester Model 12 3-inch Heavy Duck gun and I appealed to friend Bernie who was the head honcho of a major sporting goods distributor; he called Remington to get 3-inch/1-3/8 ounce loads that were still available. I suppose we could have used the more readily available 2-3/4" Short Magnums with 1-1/2 ounce of shot but those 3-inch/1-3/8 ouncers were just the ticket. frank

[Jim Cloninger]

I really like the looks of those old Remington shells!

[Stan Hillis]

I was opening my boxes of old papers yesterday afternoon, looking at the shells, and I noticed something. Without any doubt the Remingtons and Peters have more case head external corrosion than the Westerns and Winchesters. I recall Frank once saying something to the effect that Rem/Peters primers were more likely to be bad in old papers, than other makes, but this is rust/corrosion on the outside of the case heads. Anybody else ever noticed this?

[Silvers]

All nitro based smokeless powders have ingredients made by the reaction of nitric and other acids on organic compounds and despite multiple washes, some minute acid traces remain and thus the powder makers incorporate one or more higher pH components to help neutralize that remaining acid and retard what's called "souring" over time. Some powders and even certain lots of powders were more prone to souring than others, and that in turn will deteriorate the powder, corrode the brass bases and deaden the primer mix. The latter resulting in hang fires and eventually in dead primers. I've shot a lot of old paper shells and I prefer them (nostalgia) after testing for crackly ignition. GENERALLY the Remington and Peters papers will have a greater failure rate than Winchester and Westerns, and Federals are usually good to go. I'm speaking now of shells made in the 50's into the mid-60's when plastics started coming to the market. Nothing nicer than taking grouse, pheasant, woodcock, rabbit or turkey with vintage papers, but we hunt hard enough to find them and it's smart to test fire several paper shells from the box before heading out to hunt.

Just an aside, reloaders are told by experts to discard any powder that has a harsh acidic smell when the container is opened. Excellent advice and that as compared to the usual ether/alcohol solvent smell from the powder graining process. Some powder can be amazingly stable, for example the original surplus 4831 that was recovered from WW2 20 mm cannon shells. Hodgdon called it "4350 data powder" early on and was selling it in large bulk fiber barrels. I bought a lot of it at a local sporting goods store, weighed out by the pound in paper lunch bags, doubled up. 50 cents a pound. I still have about 3/4 pound that I reserve for my my old 300 Win Mag, a pre-64 Winchester M70. I've got that 4831 in a metal rifle powder 1 pounder can and when I opened it to load a few shells for this year's deer season, that aromatic ether/alcohol solvent smell took me back to much younger days. That powder was made about 80 years ogo and it's still "fresh as a daisy" to use a phrase from a barmaid at a hangout also a long time ago. frank

[Stan Hillis]

Very good info, Frank. Thank you. Still curious that the W & Ws don't have nearly as much corrosion on the outside of the case heads as the R & Ps. Probably just a result of the differing compounds and mixtures between the major shotshell manufacturers.

I agree it's fun to use the old shells for game. I began doing this some 12-15 years ago with a large lot of 16s I had come into. Big fun on a dove field. I probably should use more of them, even breaking some full boxes. I doubt very seriously that any of mine will ever have any collector value, in $$$.

[Silvers]

Speaking of vintage papers. Kind of on a tangent but here's a nice grouse taken with a vintage Remington 3-inch/410 paper using a Savage Fox BST. Peters 3-inch paper shell on standby in the left barrel but not needed this time. frank

.

[Researcher]

Is there a chance that the corrosion on the brass heads of old shells could have something to do with the paper of the boxes? I have often noticed that the corrosion is on the brass that is against the box bottom and sides while the shells in the middle are fine.

[Silvers]

Is there a chance that the corrosion on the brass heads of old shells could have something to do with the paper of the boxes? I have often noticed that the corrosion is on the brass that is against the box bottom and sides while the shells in the middle are fine.

Dave, I've never noticed that myself but I suppose some shell boxes could have traces of low or high pH chems from their respective pulping process ..... possibility of a reaction over time with the brass shell bases that touch that paper. frank