super fox loads

[simcgunner]

Anyone ever publish pressure of Super X 3 inch loads?

[Researcher]

Probably all one would have ever gotten would be within SAAMI specs.

Checking a September 1978 Winchester Western Ball Powder Loading Guide, the WW compression formed 3-inch 12-gauge hull with 1295 fps 1 3/8-ounce load of 35 grains of 540 and a WAA12 wad was 9500 lup. How this relates to these shells --

Early style 12-gauge 3-in Super-X Record.jpg (83.41 KiB) Viewed 1826 times

I have no idea.

[44whiskey]

what is lup. i have heard of cup,copper units of pressure,measuring crush of copper disc in test rifle barrels befor pressure x ducers. thanks fred

[simcgunner]

For many years gun chamber pressure units had been commonly referred to as “pounds per square inch”, which was not technically correct. The older method of pressure measurement involves a piston through the side of the chamber compressing a lead or copper cylinder in which the measurement of the degree of compression is indicative of the maximum relative pressure generated. With the advent of the electronic transducer, it became necessary to indicate by some means the method and equipment used to determine the pressure values given. --_

This is important, since the pressure values determined by one method cannot be mathematically converted to values for another, despite claims to the contrary. Likewise, the limiting pressure values for the different systems are not interchangeable.

SAAMI created the designations of “Lead Units of Pressure” (abbreviated LUP) and “Copper Units of Pressure” (abbreviated CUP) to clearly indicate the system used in determining pressure results and/or limits. These designations apply only to values with the particular crushers, test gages and methods as outlined in SAAMI technical procedures. The terms LUP and CUP represented a change in name only. The pressure testing equipment, techniques and the numbers themselves are essentially the same as those associated with pressure units expressed as so many “pounds per square inch” prior to the advent of the piezoelectric transducer method. The term “psi” (pounds per square inch) is now reserved for electronic (piezoelectric) methods of measuring pressure, which is the predominant system in use today.

By convention, units of pressure are reduced by a factor of 100 when put in tabular form. For example, 100 LUP is actually 10,000 LUP. 480 CUP is actually 48,000 CUP and 220 psi is actually 22,000 psi. As an aside the Navy puts a bunch of crusher " gages" in the powder charges of major caliber guns when proofing barrels and housings before final assembly. After firing someone go's out and recovers a couple of gages off the ground and opens them up and measures CUP to insure proof pressure has been reached.

[Silvers]

Allan, back to your question. One period reference shows the 3-inch Super-X with 1-3/8 ounces of shot at 4.5 tons average pressure, that's "long tons". Thus 4.5*2240 = 10,080 with the lead crusher. Now, it's generally accepted that modern piezo transducers will indicate 10-12% higher pressure than lead crushers and hence 10,080*1.11= about 11,200 psi or just about at the modern SAAMI service pressure spec. But with all that said, keep in mind that the period powders were single-base straight NC, and modern powders are double-base. Pressure rise with single base was slower than with DB, and recoil will be somewhat quicker and feel sharper with modern shells at the same payload and speed as were the period Super-X's. frank

PS: if you handload and have a stash of IMR SR7625 or better yet SR4756 (both are single-base straight NC powders) you can pretty much duplicate the period 3-inch progressive powder loadings and with somewhat less perceived recoil as compared with using some other current powders.

[eightbore]

Frank, slight change of subject, but a subject that you may find interest in and have knowledge of. OK, I have two boxes of 3" 1 7/8 ounce lead loads from just before the steel shot panic. I would like to pattern these in some Super Foxes with 3" chambers for research purposes. Are these 1 7/8 ounce loads too much for the Super Fox?

[Researcher]

When I got my Super-Fox back in 1963, it came with three boxes of post WW-II Remington ARROW EXPRESS 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum shells #4, #5 and #6. I still have the #6 box and half the shells.

Shot the rest of them up.

With youthful enthusiasm, after I found Nash Buckingham's September 1955, Outdoor Life article "Magnum Opus" the summer of 1966 while working for the Forest Service and realized what I had, I shot a lot of patterns with new WW Mark-5 1 5/8-ounce loads. Got beautiful patterns, some #5 went 85%. When I tried some of the 1 7/8-ounce loads they were quite patchy.

[Drew Hause]

Wow. Found this TODAY and logged in to post!

Capt. Charles Askins and E.M. Sweeley “Ballistics of the Shotgun” series in Outdoor Life
November 1923, “An American Super 12” The Super Fox boring & patterns
https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor ... 6/mode/2up
DuPont No. 93 (which became DuPont Oval)
Super-X 2 3/4” Field with 1 1/4 oz. and 40 grains powder No. 4 shot = 8,871 psi + 10 – 14% for piezo transducer numbers
Record 3” with 1 3/8 oz. shot and 42 grains powder = 10,080 psi

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer “Super-X The Long Range Load” by Capt. Chas. Askins the 12g “Duck Load” (not specified but presumed to be 1 1/4 oz. Super-X “Field”) is described as 3 1/2 dram (38.5 gr. DuPont Oval Powder = 11 gr. / Dr. Eq.); at 1400 fps (at the muzzle rather than 3 feet) and 1000 fps average over 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 8,400 psi + 10-14%
3” Super-X “Record” with 1 3/8 oz. at MV 1400 fps with 4.25 tons = 9,520 psi + 10-14%
Super-X 10g 1 5/8 oz. “about 4 1/2 Drams” No. 2 shot Full choke 32” barrel, average velocity over 40 yds. 1030 fps; “up to 13,000 psi” by crushers = about 14,500 psi by modern transducers.
Super-X 3 1/2” 10 Gauge Magnum in Ithaca Gun Co. with bore .795” with 2 oz. shot; pressures “about 5 Tons” = 11,200 psi + 10-14%

[Drew Hause]

Scroll down about 2/3 here for an explanation and images of the lead crusher device and tarage table
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2s ... OZEFU/edit

Wallace H. Coxe, in “Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics” published by E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., 1927, “Measurement of Pressures”
The common method of taking pressures in small arms in this country is known as the Radial Pressure system. A housing is built around the barrel, and a hole drilled through the housing and barrel into the chamber at a distance of 1 inch from the breech and at right angles to the axis of the bore. The hole is then bushed and drilled to a uniform diameter of 0.2250 inch. Then a piston is made the length of the piston hole and 0.2250 inch in diameter. Next the piston hole is lapped to permit the piston to fit snugly without either sticking or getting out of alignment.
In firing the gauge, the piston is inserted and seated, then a lead crusher cylinder is placed on the head of the piston and held firmly in place by a screw and anvil attachment built into the housing. When the cartridge is fired, a portion of the same gas pressure that pushes the bullet through the barrel drives the piston against the lead cylinder and compresses it.
The length of the lead crusher cylinder after compression is naturally less than before the shot was fired and the difference between the original length and the length after compression therefore represents the amount of pressure which has acted upon the lead. The exact pressure is read from a table giving a pressure reading for every remaining length reading and commonly called a Tarage Table.
Pressures that are determined at ballistic laboratories are merely relative values and are not absolute values.

NOTE: The Tarage Table conversion may be for pressure expressed as Tons / Sq. Inch or Pounds/ Sq. Inch (PSI).

September 1931 American Rifleman. “Standard Shotgun Pressure Barrels”, by Merton A. Robinson, Ballistics Engineer, Winchester Repeating Arms Co. The article described in detail the crusher method of pressure testing, with images of pressure barrels then in use by Peters, Hercules, Western, Remington, Winchester, Du Pont and Federal. Although the barrels were of somewhat different designs, they were ALL crusher barrels, without evidence of piezoelectric transducers. (Courtesy of Larry Brown)


The non-deep thinkin' version of the conversion from LUP to PSI is to add 10-14%

“Eley Shooter's Diary 2005” - “The later transducer system uplifts the (PSI by LUP) values by approx. 14%.”

[Drew Hause]

December 1923 “10 Bores and Progressive Powders”
https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor ... 2/mode/2up
Super-X "Field" 10g 2 7/8" DuPont No. 93
1 1/4 oz. (215 pellets No. 4) with 48 gr. = 6787 psi with max. 8,086 + 10 - 14%
1 5/8 oz. (230 pellets No. 4) = 6,608 psi with max. 8,535 psi + 10 - 14%

[eightbore]

Dr. Drew and Dave Noreen, thank you for all the early research, but none of it answers my question. I still have the question in my quiver. Maybe Frank will help. Thanks.

[Silvers]

Bill, I’m familiar with the 12 ga/3-inch factory load with 1-7/8 ounces of lead shot, and have fired a ton of them in earlier years through a variety of guns to include a Browning Auto 5 Magnum, several Remington 1100 Magnums and two Benelli Super Black Eagles. As you know the shell is a boomer. I’ve never fired any of them through a Super-Fox and wouldn’t do that. Reason being that I limit my vintage guns to period equivalent loads, and the heaviest period 3-inch load during the era of the Super-Fox (late 1922 to about 1940) was the 3-inch/1-5/8 ounce load that was intro’d in 1935 along with the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck pump gun. With that said I often load my Supers with the current Federal 1-5/8 ounce load for turkeys and predators, and they fire and pattern well. Recoil is heavy in my heaviest Super weighing just shy of 9 pounds. Again I don’t have any personal experience with 1-7/8 ouncers in Supers and would caution against firing that load as it was developed well after the last Super-Fox was shipped from Utica. frank

[Fowlgunner]

Bill,

What vintage are the ounce and 7 eighths? The White boxes were what was current production in 1985-89, the Brown are newer.

I can tell you from experience that the Super Double X's of the day (pre final lead ban) were more than I could stand fresh out of college in a break action gun.

Nearly broke a finger and a collarbone at the same time through a Citori!

In fact I believe it was this day!!

I would be ashamed to tell you the short mag load we had with 571 or Blue Dot, nothing compared to that punishment even through an 870.

Will

[Researcher]

The Western Cartridge Co. December 22, 1956, ammunition catalog only has the 1 3/8-ounce and 1 5/8-ounce 12-gauge, 3-inch, Super-X. The January 2, 1958, Western Cartridge Co. ammunition catalog includes the 1 7/8-ounce load in both chilled and Lubaloy shot. So, the 1 7/8-ounce loads first appeared in the blue & yellow boxes --

Same with both Remington and Peters. Not in the December 31, 1956, ammo catalog, but in the January 8, 1958, ammo catalog.

[Stan Hillis]

Being a lifelong waterfowler I have used a lot of loads, beginning with 1 1/8 oz. of #6 lead (before the lead ban) for beaver pond woodies. But, in all those years I've never fired a 1 7/8 oz. waterfowl load. Never saw the need. I have been able to cleanly kill all the big ducks I ever encountered with no more than 1 1/4 oz. lead or bismuth. I once fired a 2 oz. turkey load out of a Mossberg pumpgun ............. one time. The owner wanted me to shoot it some more but I advised that I did not hate myself that much.

Maybe big geese need a 1 7/8 oz. load to kill them, I dunno. The only two Canadas I ever killed were both dish-ragged with "wood duck loads".