How to determine if Fox barrels have been cut

[Doggai]

Recently a Sterly showed up at my house with 26" barrels. On other SxS I own there is a perpendicular line on the rib that indicates whether the barrels have been shortened. Is there an indicator on the Fox barrel that will show whether surgery has occurred?

[Silvers]

I assume you're talking about how the rib matting might terminate a bit short of the muzzles. The matting on Fox SW barrels runs right to the muzzles; it didn't stop short as done by other makers. Thus the lack of a definite stop is not an indicator of cut/not cut for Sterlingworths. USUALLY the OD's of the barrel tubes touch at the muzzle but that IS NOT proof positive because we all have seen original barrel tubes that do not touch. A good check for cut barrels is to use a bore micrometer and determine the bore diameters, start of the choke tapers, and the chokes. The choke leades on early guns will start 4 or more inches back from the muzzles, and later guns 3-1/2" or so back. If your tapers start ~2" back and the chokes are relatively open, that is a good indicator the barrels have probably been cut 2" from original configuration. No taper/little choke indicates a probable 4" cut. Of course a so-called "factory letter" showing the original barrel length is the ultimate documentation but that can take some time to get; usually prospective buyers or new owners want something definitive more quickly. Silvers

[Brian]

As Silvers stated, barrels not touching is not a true indicator. I have a 20 GA CE that has 3/32" space at front and the gun letters. Has a little keel piece between the barrels to boot.

I am not an expert but I have bought and sold a few.

My means ot determine originality is similar to Silvers but goes a bit further.
1. measure choke length. I have original length guns iwth only 2 1/2" of taper and choke. So be careful there. If its got little choke and the chokes measure 2" or so then maybe they were opened up, maybe not.
2. measure barrel length. Usually, I say again usually, Fox barrels seem to run 1/16 to 1/8" shorter than the specified length. For example, a lettered barrel length of 28" usually measures 27 15/16 to 27 7/8" long. thats hwta I have found. HOWEVER, recently I bought a Sterlingworth Skeet & Upland 12 ga, that has barrels that measure 1/4" over the nominal length of 26". All the choke is there for a S&U. Their stated length in the Callahan letter was the actual length less 1/4". This is the first Fox I have measured that was over its stated length, that wasnt cut, that lettered. usually you find them cut to odd lengths or frctoions thereof.
3. visually inspect the muzzles. I have guns thatthe barrels touch and guns that dont. But they letter. Look at the way the keels are finished off and the way the barrels look. i saw a CE 20 that has 25" barrels and IMP MOD chokes in both barrels that are 2.00" long. Its a close one for sure but my suspicion is that it was cut from 26". The muzzles were finished up and the rib was given the CE treatment on the ends. Not hard for anyone to do.

None of these points is an end in itself. But take them all into acocunt and you can get a good idea of what you are looking at. BUT, noting beats a letter form Callahan.
And always, always "Caveat Emptor".

last word, buy a good inside indicator form one of the import houses, ENCO etc. mark the legs with half inch increments and carry it to the shows. will tell you chamber length, choke length and amount and fits in a coat pocket. Much more accurate that the solid gauges.

[Researcher]

I have five 26-inch Fox doubles. Four of them letter and the fifth is too early. They all five have gaps between the tubes at the muzzle. Measuring chokes is a good indicator, but a letter is really the only way. I don't find any of my Fox barrels running short, but that only proves that the guns I've bought are pretty close to right on. I do have several Ithacas that run 1/8 to 3/16 long.

[eightbore]

I have seen Fox order cards that state "Cut longer barrels to make this gun.". This was apparently done when an open choked 26" gun was ordered and there was a shortage of 26" barrels in the parts bin. I have seen at least one Fox gun that matches the order card with wording as mentioned. I believe it was a 20 gauge SP. The muzzles exhibited a tube separation. On the other hand, my wife has a fully optioned DHE Parker 12 gauge that was made as a 30" gun, now shortened to 26" and rechoked. The tubes are still touching after being shortened 4".

[AmarilloMike]

I have a Fox XE that has 30" barrels and letters as 30".

Here is a picture of the barrel ends:



I don't know how to tell for sure unless I can get a letter.

Best,

Mike

[Doggai]

Thank you all, for your replies. I feel confident without investing in a choke and barrel measuring device, that I have a factory 26" gun. Now, where are those grouse????

[Brian]

here is a pic of the muzzles of a 20 GA CE 28" #4 weight barrels, factory letters at 28"
quite a gap.


here is a 16 GA CE 28" barrels, factory letter

[vaturkey]

In continuing this discussion. Non touching barrels 28". Dealer says they both measure out at .693. Near as I can figure that would make then full and full. Can I surmise these are indeed uncut? 28" barrels seem to be harder to find in a 12 gauge fox, however full is full I would think.

[Brian]

maybe, but other than a letter the next best way to confirm originality is to measure the choke length, fomr start of taper to muzzle.

[Shooter]

Although perhaps not definitive, something to look at might be the rib if you don't have access to all the bore tools.

My early A two barrel set has 30" and 26". The 26" have a gap. But as a result of looking closely at the muzzles and checking with my micrometer, I found that the width of the rib at the muzzles and breach of both barrels are exactly the same. So the rib on the 26" barrels have steeper taper than that on the 30". This may not be generic, but I'm pretty satisfied that it's highly unlikely the barrels were cut post production.