Red or Gray?

[Sporrns]

Looking back through the old literature (catalogs and magazine ads) is there a clear distinction as to what color phase fox was used/referred/referenced over the years? Red or Gray phase; as in grouse, or was it open to interpretation and left up to the customer viewing the ads, realizing that some parts of the country do not have one color phase or the other? Interesting to me.........Kevin

[Silvers]

Just my take as a guy who started fox trapping and hunting at about age 10. The words "color phase" as relate to grouse don't fit when differentiating between red and gray fox, each is a different genus and species. All of the A Fox Gets The Game catalogue cover cuts I've seen show a fox with a white-tipped tail. That's a typical red fox. Grays while replete with some red-orange in the fur do have a black tail tip.

Now, to confuse things the catalogue covers do show a dark stripe along the fox's back which is a characteristic of the red fox color variant known as a "Cross Fox" but the dark stripe down the front legs (that forms a cross) isn't shown.

frank

Here's a pic of a big red on the jump taken last season just a few miles away from Hausmann's.

[Sporrns]

Thank you Frank! Kevin

[Stan Hillis]

As another guy who began trapping fox at an early age I agree with Frank. Greys are always easy to identify, as are reds. I've never seen anything that might have been a "cross" between the two, nor have I ever seen color phases in grey. Reds will vary a bit in the deepness of red in their main color. Some will be more yellowish-red, others will be a deep, bright red.

I've always believed that the fox(es) depicted in Fox catalogs were reds.

SRH

[DarylC]

Frank and Stan are correct. In 60+ years here in the woods and fields of the mid-atlantic I've seen hundreds of reds and maybe 10 or so of the grey. The fox of AH Fox is a red.

[Stan Hillis]

As an aside, in the South, greys are more of a woodland creature than are reds. I would seldom catch a red on a woods road, but greys would abound in woodlots and brushy areas. Before I got really serious about my trapping and learned some things for myself I would fasten my trap to a "drag", having been told by old-timers that was the only way to do it right. Invariably, when I'd latch onto a red along the edge of a field it would strike out across the field and I'd have to trail it by the dragmarks, sometimes a long a time consuming trek. The grey would be right there at the set site, having jumped straight into the brush.

One other interesting thing about foxes .......... greys can climb a tree just like a raccoon, reds cannot. I have seen a grey high up in a persimmon tree at night. This is the reason, in my mind, that greys can survive much easier in the presence of a high population of coyotes. Once coyotes move into an area the red's population crashes. Coyotes will kill every fox they can, but they seem to be much more successful preying on the reds.

SRH

[Silvers]

Stan is right on with his fox lore. Another aside, when I was a kid the ultimate prize for youthful trappers was a fox, red or gray, even more so than a mink. They were about equally distributed thereabouts with the grays mostly in the woods and reds in the farmlands. No coyotes at that time and there was a $4. bounty on any fox. The pelts were sent to our PA Game Commission and returned with a notch cut in one ear so it couldn't be redeemed again. Payment by check. Neither reds nor grays were worth much for fur value at that time. The red fox "cross fox" variation was almost unheard of in PA but just enough so they were magic, dream material. They had that cross in dark fur across the back and shoulders and again the A H Fox catalog fox sure looks like one except for the shoulder stripe. I never took one while trapping or fox hunting with a mentor and his trailing hounds, nor later with a record, tape or digital caller. But I did write a cross fox hunt tale into one of my recent DGJ pieces. Another red fox variation is the "silver fox" that has silver tipped blackish fur. I saw several of them while trophy deer hunting on Anticosti Island off the coast of Quebec but couldn't get a shot, not a good idea anyway with a 300 Win Mag. Silver fox were prevalent there on the island, having escaped from a fur farm many years prior. One of my friends Ed did take a silver while on a hunt there along with a group and its well known leader who had an "in" with Consolidated Bathurst the lumber company that owned the island at that time. They'd chartered a DC 3 for the trip and when they returned to the Scranton airport with the deer and silver fox, the silver was in the group picture on the tarmac but then disappeared while the fellows were retrieving their cars. Ed still shows us that pic and talks about how one of the "sportsmen" stole that silver that he intended to have mounted. Nice guy, huh?

[Jeff S]

I'm not an expert on Fox, nor am I great photographer, but I thought I would share these pictures of a Gray Fox family that lived under my deck back in 2015. Notice the black on the tail. The mother was missing a front foot. Possibly the result of a trap. She also came back and had a litter then next year. Jeff

[Stan Hillis]

Neat pics, Jeff, especially of the little ones.

For some reason I always had a lot more respect for greys than I did reds. By respect, I mean admiration, or maybe just interest. Greys are scrappers. Walk up to a red in a trap and it will typically turn away from you, as if it can hide itself if it can't see you. Coyotes are much the same. Almost cowardly in some respects. Greys, OTOH, won't back up from you nearly so much. Even in a trap they will bare their teeth at you, growl and even snap at you if you get too close. Tough little guys, even though smaller than the average red.

Another interesting thing about them, to me, is that the fur is so different. The fur on a red is long, silky, fluffy, and just much more "lush" looking. The fur on a grey is coarse, very coarse in certain areas of the body, and doesn't look anything like the red's fur, disregarding the color differences, of course. However, the fur on a red is much more subject to be graded down in the late season due to "rubbing". I have old fur sale sheets I can refer to, from the early '80s, that prove this out. Every red's pelt was graded critically, according to condition. Greys almost always brought the same price per pelt. They just don't vary in quality as much as do reds.

The late 70s and early 80s were a time of incredible fur prices, and my farm income was supplemented greatly by my fur sales. The season came in on Dec. 1, and in the first three weeks I would have accumulated a nice cache of pelts. I'd make an early trip to the fur house, sell what I had caught, and that provided "Christmas" for my family, especially in years of low commodity prices or low yields. I was what was referred to in those days as a long liner. I would cover many miles and many thousands of acres each morning running my trapline. My two boys were little fellows then, and wanted to ride with me every morning they were out of school to "check the traps", even tho' it meant leaving home way before daylight. Good memories, for all three of us. But, enough of personal reminiscing. This is a Fox forum, not a fox forum. My apologies if I abused the spirit of the thread.

SRH

[jolly bill]

Nice discussions and pictures you guys.

Reminds me as a kid back in the mid 1940's trapping Fox's with a #2 double coil spring Victor.

We got more skunks than fox's and when we, (my friend growing up - Billy White) got anything, we'd have to get my uncle or his dad to shoot it for us.

The state paid a bounty of $5.00 each. Much like what Frank got in PA.

Nice memories. Thanks.

Jolly

[Jim Cloninger]

Very interesting, guys. Thanks. Jim

[Rbishop]

Another Southern boy here from Tennessee. I grew up in the woods hunting with hounds, primarily squirrel, coon & opossum. I had a cousin who was a fox hunter and had fox hounds. He was with us squirrel hunting and big red fox came trotting thru the woods. One of the guys in the bunch wanted to shoot the fox but the "fox hunter" pitched a fit! He didn't want anyone killing a fox that his hounds might chase! The talk at that time, I was just a kid, was that there weren't many foxes around, but I imagine there were more than they imagined.

[MARSHFELLOW]

.……… this turned into a very interesting informative thread. Thanks gents.
tjw

[Researcher]

Great Fox pictures, Jeff. Thanks for sharing.