Super Fox ?

[Jim McKee]

Hi!
How can you identify a 12 bore Super Fox vs a 12 bore Fox with 3 inch chambers?
Were Super Fox shotguns so marked?
Thanks!
Jim

[Researcher]

The 12-gauge HE-Grade Super-Fox could be had chambered for either 2 3/4 or 3-inch shells. If they were chambered for 3-inch shells from the factory they were marled like this --

"Regular" 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox shotguns were normally chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells, but they held the chambers about 1/8 inch short, believing that the mouth of the paper case opening a bit into the forcing cone produced a better gas seal and hence better patterns. A.H. Fox Gun Co. shotguns could be ordered chambered for any length shell the customer wanted at no additional cost. The only place this might have been marked was on the hang-tag that accompanied the gun when new. Marking chamber lengths on their shotguns didn't seem to be important to our manufacturers back in the day. The SAAMI meeting where it was suggested that manufacturers begin marking chamber lengths on their guns was in 1936. By late 1938/early 1939, Savage was marking their Fox doubles like this --

[Jim McKee]

Thank you!
Jim

[vaturkey]

One caveat, is that some Super Foxes were factory chambered with 3" but not always marked as such on the watertable. Takes a special set of chamber gauges to show whether they were indeed chambered as 3" by the factory or reamed out to 3" somewhere down the road. Our own Frank Silvers has the appropriate gauges to determine if they were indeed factory chambered as 3" whether they were or were not marked as such on the watertable. This is my HE, not so marked as being 3" but confirmed by Frank as being a factory 3" gun last year at the NE SXS.

[eightbore]

The receiver dimensions were not different?

[eightbore]

Well, no one answered Jim McKee's or my question. Here is the answer. The receiver dimensions are different for a standard Fox and a Super Fox. I can't put my hands on my notes on the subject, but I once made a template to identify a Super Fox without taking it out of the rack at a gun show. I carried that template for years, because a friend had bought a Super Fox with a Sterlingworth tag hanging off the trigger guard. I think he paid $300 for it.

[TOOL MAN]

....and of course the "H" grade mark on the barrel flats along with the "O" weight barrel stamping, both of which are clearly shown in Researcher's pic.

[agrade7129]

Recently found a Sterlingworth Wildfowl for sale Were these guns built on a Becker type Super frame? Where do they fit in Fox/Savage production timeline?

[Foxnut]

The Sterlingworth Wildfowl Guns were made from HE parts in stock when Savage took over the A.H. Fox gun company. There are two serial number runs on these guns. One set is same/similar to the HE/Super Fox and the other run is specific to the Wildfowler. It’s been summized that the S/N series like the Super Foxes were already serial numbered frames when Savage took them over. I don’t have my catalogs handy but am certain that Dave or someone else can tell you what year they first were cataloged.

[Researcher]

Dave is down on the beach at Seaside, Oregon. Couldn't ask for a better Saturday in March, 63 degrees and blue sky. We won't discuss the weather I drove through to get here, Thursday!! Of all the dogs I've seen on the beach today, Skitso is the only English Setter.

Fox-Sterlingworth Wildfowl -- Starting with the 1934 Wholesale Retail price list and sporadically through 1940 Savage offered a Sterlingworth version of the Super-Fox. Basically using the HE-grade iron, including ejectors and the Deeley forearm latch, engraved in Sterlingworth style and fitted with Sterlingworth quality wood. The only one I've had the opportunity to measure the bores on, the one pictured in McIntosh's book, had bores of.728" with .039" choke in both tubes. Compared to my 1928 vintage Super-Fox it handles with all the grace of a railroad tie. The Fox-Sterlingworth Wildfowls I've had an opportunity to examine have had serial numbers in the 134,102 to 134,130 range. Research for Frank's article (The Double Gun Journal, Volume Twenty-Six, Issue 4) on the Wildfowls produced cards for a few higher than that. Also a handful of guns right at the end of graded 12-gauge production were finished up as Wildfowls in the 3528x range. At least one of those that has been on the market recently has Super-Fox wood.

[Jeff S]

Well, no one answered Jim McKee's or my question. Here is the answer. The receiver dimensions are different for a standard Fox and a Super Fox. I can't put my hands on my notes on the subject, but I once made a template to identify a Super Fox without taking it out of the rack at a gun show. I carried that template for years, because a friend had bought a Super Fox with a Sterlingworth tag hanging off the trigger guard. I think he paid $300 for it.

I know very little about the Super Fox, but I do recall an article written by "Fox-Admin" for the Double Gun Journal. In the article he shows a picture of a standard Fox, and a Super Fox, both with a set of calipers across the "breech balls". I don't have the article in front of me, but I think the Super Fox measured 2.42" and the std Fox measured 2.37". I'm sure someone in this group will know the exact measurements, but the point is that the receiver of a Super Fox is much thicker than the others.

[Sporrns]

Well, no one answered Jim McKee's or my question. Here is the answer. The receiver dimensions are different for a standard Fox and a Super Fox. I can't put my hands on my notes on the subject, but I once made a template to identify a Super Fox without taking it out of the rack at a gun show. I carried that template for years, because a friend had bought a Super Fox with a Sterlingworth tag hanging off the trigger guard. I think he paid $300 for it.

So if you already knew the answer, why didn't you post it right off? Also, why haven't you duplicated your "SuperFox ID Template" in volume and made them available to AHFCA members like the PGCA's "Trojan Forend Release Tool"??? (actually a plastic letter opener - for you leather workers, a bone folder will do). What are we doing here anyway????

PS - Don't be late for the MACA Show setup Friday, and don't forget to wear your Kelly green top hat on Saturday! Kevin

[eightbore]

Sporms, to answer your first question, I wanted to see whether anyone was paying attention. Obviously, they were not. I met with two of our fellow exhibitors at Baltimore today. They are raring to go, and, like me, they will be on time.

[Researcher]

If I was there I'd be wearing me orange!!

[OH Osthaus]

If I was there I'd be wearing me orange!!

had an art professor(a born and bred orange man) that wore orange to the local Finger Lakes bar on Saint Patrick's day - i used to laugh at him and tell him no one that was there drinking green beer understood his protest