Bo-Whoop

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:34 am

Foxadmin, I would recommend that our organization request a letter on the serial number that Mr. Lander mentioned in his post. This letter, whether or not it is in agreement with the wording of Mr. Lander's mention, should be part of the Fox Collectors Association permanent research file.

George Lander · Post by **George Lander** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:26 pm

Jeff: Thanks for understanding that my intent was merely to inform this forum concerning an interesting Fox that I am given to believe is the missing (now found) Bo Whoop I.

Mr. Kass: I certainly did not intend to make a "flippant remark" or attempt to disparage the legal profession in any way. I was merely quoting a reference to the question of legal ownership that is often heard both within and without the legal profession. No, I don't do title searches on the real estate that I buy & sell. That is left to the closing attorney here in South Carolina who's job it is to certify title & issue title insurance if requested. In my almost 50 years of real estate practice I have yet to encounter one that turned out to be "bogus". I am sure, however, that you will admit that establishing title on real property is a bit different that determining ownership of a shotgun. I have owned several over the years (as perhaps you have) that had someone's name either on the case or on the gun or both, although not some one quite so well known in sporting circles.

The Fox that I handled and to which the letter referred had (as I recall) stamped on the right barrel: "MADE FOR NASH BUCKINGHAM" and on the left "BY BURT BECKER". It was, at the time, being restocked by a close friend, gunsmith and stockmaker. Again, If anyone would like a copy of the letter just send me your fax number or mailing address. My e-mail address is palmettotreasure@aol.com.

Best Regards, George

Post by **fox-admin** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:53 pm

George what is the serial number? I would like to get a letter for the Fox Collectors Assoc. e-mail it to me at clarter@rochester.rr.com Thanks Craig

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:10 pm

George mentioned #31,088 in his post.

Post by **fox-admin** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:11 am

OK I sent for the letter today. I will scan it and post it as part of our club's historical archive. Craig

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:13 pm

Researcher, you mentioned that the card for 31,088 didn't mention the engraving on the barrel. Does it mention that the gun was ordered by or for Nash Buckingham? If it mentions TNB, then the letter from Callahan to Lander is as it should be. Is the only fact in dispute whether this gun is Bo Whoop 1 or is the TNB connection also in dispute? I had always understood that 31,088 was Bo Whoop or was there another number?

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:56 pm

The card is exactly as the letter George quoted. What the card doesn't mention is -- 1. no safety, 2. the inscription of the barrel for Nash Buckingham, and 3. Burt Becker. Nash Buckingham is the consignee listed on the card. From the poor pictures in Nash's books of Bo Whoop I, it just doesn't appear to my eye as being done up in XE-style. These things contribute to my feeling that 31088 is a gun Nash ordered for one of his cronies. I've never seen or handled 31088, so I have no first hand experience, and could be totally wrong.

DGKaas · Post by **DGKaas** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:05 pm

FWIW, I support Dave's conclusion. While my father paid big $s to train me as a "historian", Dave is the real deal. He has invested 1000s of hours in documenting and exposing the history of the Fox gun. There is "proof" and there is BS. Knowing the difference divides the test pilots from the pudknockers as Pancho said in "The Right Stuff". I am certain that nothing would please Dave (and me) more than the actual discovery of BWI and its repatriation to the Buckingham heirs (if only briefly prior to heading to auction). If Dave thought this gun was "it" at the very least, having had the card for years, we would have read about it. It would have been the Fox gun equivalent of Howard Carter peering into King Tut's tomb...

loggy · Post by **loggy** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:51 pm

I woulld only hope that BWI does non have a set of Briley's and a new stock. We do have Nash to thank for his account of a time gone bye and for exposing a group of sportsman to a wonderful brand of shotguns. As an aside, I was fortunate enough to have Mr. Noreen stop past one evening and veiw my small assortment of Foxes. I learned more in one evening than I have in quite some time. It will be a time I will always remember. These guns have given me a lot of good memories. We are very lucky to have him share his wealth of knowledge.

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:19 pm

Yeah, if we all moved to Idaho we could have the benefit of Dave's experience. Fortunately, Dave is willing and able to travel to various shows to expand his own experience and ours. Hopefully, he will visit us at the Vintagers this fall.

George Lander · Post by **George Lander** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:39 pm

Did everyone who requested a copy of the Fox letter by mail get theirs.

Best Regards, George

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:23 pm

Yes, George. I got mine and thank you. Even Dave mentions the Nash
Buckingham reference on the original order card. Now where is the best known picture of BW1 in a Nash Buckingham work? I remember someone giving us that reference not too long ago and when I researched the reference, the page was missing from the book. Does any BW1 picture reference clearly show an engraved or unengraved gun? The order card clearly mentions X Grade engraving, which should show clearly on any half way decent picture of the gun. George, is the gun in question engraved to X Grade standards? I didn't get to see it when you showed it in Maryland last fall. You did show it last fall, didn't you? Thanks. for your reply. Bill Murphy

DGKaas · Post by **DGKaas** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:22 pm

Bill- how many times do we have to do this? Either your "notes" are misplaced, the "page is missing" or the dog ate your homework

p 141 of "Ole Miss" 1937 Putnam has a photo of Bo Whoop. Under a magnifying glass it shows a moderately engraved gun with no barrel engraving. It does not appear to me to be an X grade. GBE's "Best of NB" also shows a photo of a kneeling NB and BWI. Again, under magnification, it appears engraved but more D than X. This would be consistent with NB's "light" Whitworth barrelled Becker D Special HE (i.e. The "English Alliance" gun still with TK). Photos of BWI are few and far between.

BTW, thanks for the check!

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:27 pm

Just to throw a fly in the ointment -- the "Caldwell" HE-XE (The Double Gun Journal, Volume Two, Issue 3, pages 36-43) doesn't have any barrel engraving. It also doesn't have a rebated frame and the breechballs are not contoured to the barrel profile. In The Double Gun Journal, Volume Five, Issue 3, pages 81 to 83, Tom Kidd shows an HE-XE with a Monte Carlo stock and it also has no barrel engraving, but it does have the rebated frame and the breechballs filed to the barrel contour. I don't see Tom giving us the serial number on that gun.

The kneeling Nash with Bo Whoop I is the frontpiece in the Putnam edition of Blood Lines and is a bit clearer there. It is a great shot of the ivory forearm tip inlay.

George Lander · Post by **George Lander** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:11 pm

Bill: You're welcome for the letter. Your questions are indeed on point and legitimate You ask: "Where is the best known picture of BW 1 in Nash's work" ? The one's mentioned seem to be the best known but are they the BEST PICTURES? That I don't know but perhaps someone knows of some others than those mentioned. Perhaps there is a photograph somewhere of the author & his favourite duck gun. How much engraving did 31088 have & what style ? Honestly I don't remember but I will ask the gunsmith and stockmaker that worked on it when I see him next week. I did not have the gun to show when I was in Easton last year. I only saw the gun & held it twice & that was in my friend's shop. It was he who gave me a copy of Mr. Callahan's letter with the present owner's name deleted.

Best Regards, George