Fox "BA" serial number 53

DaveH · Post by **DaveH** » Thu May 22, 2008 6:17 pm

Hello gentlemen,

I've been reading this board and others for a long time trying to soak up as much info as I can about Fox guns from the experts here. I'm an avid bird hunter and I've been planning for a few years to get my first Fox (and first side-by-side) as soon as I finally finished my education and got a real job. Well, the time has finally come and I have been looking around for a 12g A grade to get started with. I came across a very early Fox at a shop here in Ontario that is stamped "BA," which is a marking I haven't seen mentioned here before. The engraving appears to my inexperienced eye to be the early A grade style. The fellow in the shop thought the BA designation meant A grade metal and B grade wood. Does this sound right? It does have fairly nice looking wood under the old finish.

The gun shows pretty heavy wear but doesn't appear to have been abused. I wonder if anyone has a thought as to how the grade designation and low serial number impact on value as compared to the average 12g A grade shooter.

I had the shop email me a few photos, which I could share if they'd be of interest and someone would be willing to post them for me.

Thanks,

Dave H.

Post by **fox-admin** » Thu May 22, 2008 8:38 pm

We would love to see pictures. E-mail them to me and I will post them. During the first years of production Fox made a few different variations of the early B grade gun. I have never seen one marked "BA". However I did see a early B this weekend that was stamped B on the water table and A on the barrel flats. The barrels were A quality but the numbers and grade stamps all looked exactly the same. So who knows.

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:28 am

Number 35 that I did an article on in The Double Gun Journal, was stamped CS on the watertable, BC on one set of barrels and D on the second set of barrels and their forearm?!? I always figured that the A.H. Fox Gun Co. hadn't really figured out what grade of gun they were making that early on. By similarly engraved guns serial number 442 and 511 they were stamped D on all parts.

Post by **fox-admin** » Fri May 23, 2008 9:30 am

Here are the pictures of DaveH's "BA". Looks like a standard A with a very unusual stock, it must be a replacement.

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Fri May 23, 2008 11:30 am

Great example of the FLUID-STEEL-KRUPP-ESSEN HEAVY-WEIGHT-BARRELS stamping. I remember seeing that on a B-Grade serial number 8 that was at a Maryland Arms Collectors Association show years ago. Both Eightbore and I himmed and hawwed around and didn't buy old number 8, but we sure should have.

Those stock cheeks are a profile I've never seen on an A.H. Fox Gun Co. gun before, and the checkering pattern on the grip is far larger then normally seen on early A- or B-Grades. Also the border around the checkering pattern on the grip is different then that on the forearm, all leading me to think that is not the original stock.

Still, seerms like a nice gun from the pictures and thank you for providing these good pics of early barrel flat and watertable markings. Admin, you might want to think about adding those to our marking pages on the web site. Nice example of the earliest Patent roll stamp. Then perhaps we could add a few of the later versions as well?!? Great ideas from Researcher while at outpost North!

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Fri May 23, 2008 12:34 pm

Cool! I really like this gun. Although the stock cheeks and checkering are atypical the rest of the buttstock sure looks Foxy at least to this apprentice's eye. The head inletting also looks pretty good. The lower side of the left cheek doesn't quite match the line of the frame. However I did see a D grade last weekend that didn't quite match either, and have seen other graded guns likewise. I'll bow to the experts' take that the stock might be a replacement but whomever made the stock way back when seems like he knew what he was doing.

Dave, welcome to the board. If the gun is otherwise sound the price on that card sounds decent too. I assume it is $ CDN. Silvers

birdawg · Post by **birdawg** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:24 am

If only the us dollar were worth more than the Cnd. Ah for the good old days.

PhillyFoxB · Post by **PhillyFoxB** » Sat May 24, 2008 7:51 am

Nice Pics Dave of a nice early Fox. I checked the barrels of my early B grade pictured just a few lines down from from this posting and they are not stamped "Heavyweight Barrels" as on this "BA". How much does this BA weigh?? I've weighed mine on 2 different scales and it is 8lbs 4oz which I think is on the heavier side of most 12 gauges I've seen. Good luck should you decide to buy it.

Mike

DaveH · Post by **DaveH** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:07 pm

Thanks for the responses. I am amazed at the knowledge you guys have. One more thing about the stock: there's an unengraved silver oval. Would this make it any more or less likely that it's a replacement?

I didn't get an exact weight on the gun when I first looked at it. I'm going to have another look at it next Friday and will make a decision then.

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Sun May 25, 2008 8:23 pm

I agree with Silvers' suspicion that the stock may have come from the Fox works. It is one nice piece of wood. The gun is quite a piece of Fox history and someone should bite the bullet. DaveH, please let us know if you decide to pass it up. After seeing this gun and the #35 gun with the CS and CD markings, I am starting to suspect that very early receivers were fitted and filed to a level of finish to be suitable for use on guns of more than one grade. By the way, the blunt rounded cheeks are characteristic of some later Becker Foxes, #2 in particular. Maybe the gun was stocked by Burt Becker. Stranger things have surfaced in the past.

PhillyFoxB · Post by **PhillyFoxB** » Mon May 26, 2008 8:21 am

This stock design, though much more rare was used on some Foxes. Page 111 of Michael McIntosh's Fox book shows an early pin Sterlingworth with a stock head like that of this A grade. I also remember seeing an early B grade with a stock like this at the Vintagers 2005 National Side by Side Festival held at Northbook.

DaveH · Post by **DaveH** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:37 am

I took another look at this gun late last week. It weighs 7.2 lbs despite the "Heavy Weight" bbls and balances nicely. The 30" bbls are in good shape, with good bores, and only a little shallow pitting under where the tip of the forend rests. The chambers have been lengthened to 3". Choke are M/F.

I made an offer, but the manager was away, so I had to wait until yesterday to get him on the phone to talk about it. I'm happy to say we came to a mutually agreeable price, and I am now the owner of my first Fox! Unfortunately I'm away for work now, so I won't have the gun in hand for another week.

My initial thoughts for this gun are to add a pad to bring the LOP up from the current 14" and a nice refinish of the wood. I think I'll leave the metal finish as is. The gun would be more useful for my hunting with somewhat more open chokes, so I'm thinking of that, too.

I have a couple of questions:

Would opening the chokes hurt the value of the gun much? My thought was that it's already had some modification done and its value is as a shooter, so it shouldn't hurt, but I'd be interested to know if anyone differs.

Were any of the guns from this early period sent from the factory with recoil pads, and if so what type of pad (and are they available now)? Otherwise, I think I saw a photo of a Fox on this board that had a brown Pachmayr pad installed that looked sharp.

By the way, the shop where I found this gun (Epps) has an HE on consignment. I think I read here that someone is looking for one. The guy to contact is Wes (705-689-5333). He told me that it would take about 4 months and several hundred dollars to repatriate the gun.