2-3/4" chambers on 1909 gun?

[ironman5]

I have my first fox - an early a grade #10812 (1909?) I have measured the chambers several times using the index card method. They measure 2-7/8" everytime I do it. Could a 1909 gun have came with 2-3/4" chambers? Would 2-9/16" be more likely? I'll get a letter from Mr. Callahan eventually.

[Researcher]

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the recently published book "The Parker Story" the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in "The American Rifleman" (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A recent issue of The Double Gun Journal carried an article on tests showing no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

A lot will depend on what the customer requested. Back at the time your gun was built, North American 12-gauge shells could be had in paper cases
2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch. So, if the customer said chamber for 3-inch shell, he or she would likely get a 2 7/8 inch chamber. If the customer said chamber 3-inches he or she would most likely get a 3-inch chamber. I have a 1920-vintage 20-gauge AE-Grade that states on the production card "chamber for 2 3/4 inch shell." The chambers are in fact 2 5/8 inches. Still, 1/4 inch longer then the normal Fox 20-gauge chamber of that time.

Generally speaking the 2 3/4 inch case was pretty standard for 12-gauge guns. The old Winchester Model 1893 was made for 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shells, but when the big W converted to the Model 1897 it was made to function with 2 3/4 inch shells. When Remington Arms Co. brought out their John M. Browning designed "Autoloading Gun" in 1905, it was made for 2 3/4 inch shells. Why the poor 16-gauge got saddled with that oddball 2 9/16 inch length shell as standard I have no idea. When Remington Arms Co., Inc., added the 16- and 20-gauge to their now called Model 11 autoloading shotgun they were both made for 2 3/4 inch shells and Remington offered 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge shells loaded a 1/4 dram equiv. hotter then the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X or Nitro Express of that time.

[ironman5]

Researcher, You always have useful/helpful info on the other BBS and again you don't dissapoint here on this venue. Will the letter from the factory records indicate chamber length? I have always wondered about the history of the 2-9/16" shell. I owned a belgium Browning A-5 16b that was chambered for those. I didn't know much back then (not much different from now) but was told to send it back to the factory and they would ream out the port so that it would eject 2-3/4" shells (It was then rendered worthless as a collector) or keep it the way it was and it would be an expensive club (because I could not find shells). I traded it for a 4wheeler and 2 weeks after I traded it, I found 4 boxes of vintage 16b 2-9/16" shells. 1 box of 2-9/16" slugs too. Story of my life.

[Silvers]

Ironman, I have two pre-1912 graded guns with 2-7/8" chambers - measured with a regular chamber gauge. Both are 32" barreled guns that look like they were ordered for waterfowl or live birds. One of them letters with 3" chambers, the other letter doesn't state any particular length. The gauge shows the exact same depth for all 4 chambers and I really don't think those on the second gun were lengthened by a gunsmith. I guess what I'm saying is a JC letter can only confirm 3" chambers if it's shown on the order card.

I've also measured many regular 12 gauge Fox chambers with the chamber gauge and they typically measure 2-5/8" on the nose, as cited by Researcher. Silvers

[Researcher]

My C-Grade Philadelphia Arms Co. Fox Pigeon gun also has the 2 7/8 inch chambers?!?

http://www.foxcollectors.com/philadelphia%20arms.htm

[66fordking]

Silvers : I must concede to you on my post from the other day. Hell i cant even find the artical from dgj on short and long chambers by mr. Bell. i guess thats what happends when you try to read to many at a time they start to run together. I also just got my callahan letter a week or so ago on a 1909 A grade it did not say anything about the chamber size of it i guess some do and some dont. So i bow my head humbly to you kind sir. thanks you for all the time and effort you supply here! Tim

[Silvers]

Tim, thanks for a tip of the hat but it's not necessary. I've been helped by many and I try to help others as best I can. I can't put my finger on the Sherman Bell short chamber articles either. One of these days I'll make a log of the articles I have an interest in. I still do think that SB's work on short chambers is mainly with 12 gauge guns. I did read one he did on 10 gauge 2-7/8" chambers thanks to Fox Admin telling me about it. If SB did anything with the really short 20 gauge chambers I missed it. I don't have all the DGJ's. Frank

[fullchoke16]

The short chamber, long shell article is in Winter 2001 issue. I'm glad Sherman Bell does that type of testing and gives a good description of the results. It opens your eyes about some common beliefs that we've all heard and took for gospel over the years. Frank is right, it pertains to 12 ga. shells.