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I just bought a 20 ga PA Sterlingworth that was appearently made in 1924 (factory letter has been requested but has not been received yet). The chambers have been lengthened to 2 3/4". The gun is just under 6 lbs. and is in excellent condition and I would like to keep it that way. (This has caused me to need to get a lot smarter about shell ballistics ) Anyway, I am now looking for low pressure shells and have noticed that Rem STS "Managed-Recoil" RLSTS2085 are available locally. They contain 7/8 oz. of #8 1/2 shot and are rated at 1100 FPS. Anyone have any experience with these shells or know the rated pressure or dram equiv. values for these shells? The Remington website isn't of much help. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
FBN, good morning. Unless you have firm data stating the shells are loaded to a significantly lower pressure parameter than the current SAAMI max specification for 20 gauge, I would advise you to follow the WARNING that's printed on the box. I don't have that particular box in front of me but if it says something like "use only in modern shotguns in good condition" that would exclude those shells from use in Philly and Utica-Savage Fox shotguns. The latest one is some 60 years old and cannot be called modern by any stretch of the imagination.
Besides I'm thinking the shells are only loaded in 8-1/2 size shot and while that is useful for closer clay targets it isn't optimum for clays at a distance or on edge. Likewise good for smaller game birds but not for the larger specie.
I know this probably isn't what you want to hear but I offer this advice with Safety in mind, first and foremost. That's why many have gotten into handloading for their vintage Fox, parker, Smith, etc. shotguns. I don't load myself currently but a good friend does and we have a deal for him to load shells for me. Silvers
Frank, are you saying I shouldn't be using something like the Winchester AA Extra-lite 1 ounce loads in my 12 gauge A grade Fox? This gun has 3-weight barrels, and there seems to be plenty of steel in the receiver/chamber/forcing cone area. I sure thought this would qualify as a "modern" gun, or at least modern enough (1931 vintage)... but your post is giving me second thoughts!
Mike
PS: I had Mike Orlen lengthen the forcing cones on this gun last month and he didn't raise any concerns regarding what ammo I should be shooting.
Mike, I'm not trying to sidestep your question but I don't think anyone will give any of us the go-ahead to use modern shells that might be loaded to the SAAMI max of something like 11,500 psi for 12 gauge in an original Fox. I have to believe the factory lawyers are talking with the factory engineers and ballisticians and they know more than a layman does.
If you take Shooting Sportsman check out the articles by Roster in the last issue and the one two issues before that one. He talks about why modern high pressure shells should not be used, and about testifying as an expert witness in court cases where someone did so and suffered damages.
Whenever someone says they're using modern shells in a vintage Fox. Parker, Smith, etc. it reminds me of a tale told by, I believe, Jack O'Connor. He wrote about the farmer who walked past his mule in the barn every morning and pulled on his tail. The mule just winced and looked at him in pain. Then after 10 years of doing that the farmer pulled on the mule's tail and the mule kicked him in the groin and broke his pelvis. Afterwards the farmer said "gee, he never did that before".
All told, I think it's best to handload shells for Foxes to lower pressure parameters. Frank
I have never hesitated for 42 years to use "modern" ammo in my 3-weight 12-gauge A-grade in hunting situations that call for it, maxing out at the 3 3/4 dram equiv. 1 1/4 ounce Super-X type shells, though the bulk of my bird hunting is usually with a 3 dram equiv. 1 1/8 ounce trap load. For high-volume shooting at clay targets I load 7/8 ounce, 1200 fps, 6300 psi handloads for my old 12-gauge doubles to be easy on them and me. When it comes to lightweight short chambered smallbores I get a lot more cautious.
Nobody over the internet can tell you what ammo you should or shouldn't be using in your gun. Only you and a qualified gunsmith with the gun in hand can make that decision. For me, I feel the Sherman Bell series in The Double Gun Journal shows it takes a lot to blow up one of these old doubles and that the reason is virtually always a bore obstruction. For me the reason to use the light loads is to be easy on the 60 to 100 year old wood at the head of the stock, and to be easy on me.
Last edited by Researcher on Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks for all of your insights on this. I'm not a lawyer, but my interpretation of "modern gun" in the context of the scary notice on the shell box, is " a gun without Damascus steel barrels". As others have said, I'm more worried about damage and wear to wood than about the tubes rupturing.
Fly By Night, I have used RST 21/2" shells exclusively this season with the exception of a few Texas handloads. I shoot primarily lightweight guns from 12 to 20 and I love these shells. Low recoil, low pressure and good velocity. If you are looking for target ammo this will not be your cheapest option. Peter
i looked at the rst website and their shells are at decent prices compared to AA target loads, at least in my area. AA #7.5 2 3/4 target loads at the local shop here are 7.99 a box. however i was blown away at the price for nontox loads, could it really be that expensive to manufacture that stuff. in one season you would shoot the value of your gun or even gun collection in shells at ducks.
has anyone shot that hevi shot classic double enough to know how it performs in old foxes?
Thanks for your input. This has been a learning experience for me. I agree that shooting known low pressure ammo in these old guns, is the safest course of action. I would just like to better understand the relationship of these parameters (i.e. DE, shot load, FPS, and PSI). Obviously, primer type and powder type play an important role in this. I have found the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center website, but questions remain ..... inquiring minds need to know.
Hi all, new to this forum. I read posts on this forum but this is a first time post for me. About managed pressures allient reloading powders has a web site to give you reloaders exactly what you want. I reload 7/8 oz 12 guage shells all the time for the 2 foxes I have. 7/8 oz shot, 1,200 fps, rem.209p primer,e-3 powder, claybuster 4100-12 B wad,16.2 grains powder, 6,195 psi.There are more loads on this site, but I mainly use this load for my foxes and to practice with. These loads break birds. Just my .02 cents.
) Anyway, I am now looking for low pressure shells and have noticed that Rem STS "Managed-Recoil" RLSTS2085 are available locally. They contain 7/8 oz. of #8 1/2 shot and are rated at 1100 FPS. Anyone have any experience with these shells or know the rated pressure or dram equiv. values for these shells? The Remington website isn't of much help. Any help would be appreciated.
