The Fox SBT

[Perly88]

Gents, My first post to the forum, I'm a new member interested in the American Classic SBT guns. I both collect and shoot them in both practice and ATA registered targets.

I have in my collection six American classics as follows:
Parker SC (1928)
4E Ithaca Flues (1916)
2ea. Ithaca 4E Knick Model (1954 & 1956)
L.C Smith Speciality (1927)
Fox "J" Grade - 1st year production (1919) (custom re-stocked at some late date)

I find the Fox to be the most elegant,the most Robust 'lookin - raises the most eyebrows at the club etc., however, I can't for the life of me understand why there were so few of these guns made (568 guns) compared to the rest. Since Frank Conley is no longer with us, along with Don Zutz, Can anyone answer this?

I sure admired Bill Grill's collection it the photo. Perhaps Bill could weigh in on this question.

Regards: PerlY88, Albuquerque, NM

I suew

[Silvers]

The Fox was the last classic SBT to be introduced. The mechanism has many similarities to Ansley's excellent S x S design. About all you need to know can be found in McIntosh's Fox book and the article The Premier of Trap Guns and the Fat Lady by William Headrick in the Spring 2005 edition of the Double Gun Journal. You can order a copy of the latter from the DGJ or often find them on E Bay. The Fox SBT's are wonderful guns. I'm not much of a trap shooter but I use them once in a while for sporting clays when my buds pull each bird on call. We all like to see the diesel smoke when a closer bird is centered. The AHFCA sponsored our first William C Letterman SBT shoot at the NE Classic S x S event this past June. More info on the 2013 shoot may be found at the links that follow. The shoot was well received and we plan to run it again in 2014. Silvers

http://foxcollectors.com/My%20Forum/php ... f=8&t=4683

http://foxcollectors.com/My%20Forum/php ... f=2&t=4731

[eightbore]

The first call for single barrel Foxes to assemble at the Northeast Side by Side shoot a while back resulted in the largest assemby of Fox singles outside the factory. Pictures are posted on this forum.

[Perly88]

Silvers & Eightbore -- Thanks for the responses. I did read the article in the spring 2005 edition of DGJ a few years ago and it piqued (sp) my interest in the Fox SBT even more.

In the last paragraph of Don Zutz's book "The Double Shotgun" P.204 - writing about the Fox Gun, he mentions that Fox abandoned the idea of developing an O/U gun due to problems with the SBT design. No further details.

I will try to read more in McIntosh's Fox book on this subject.

Maybe these mechanical problems had something to do with so few Fox SBT's being produced. I agree that the Fox gun was one of the last of the SBT's to come upon the trapshooting scene (1919),, but the Ithaca "Knick" was not introduced until 1922 and there were about 5700 of these guns made until around 1980 or so.

[Silvers]

I've studied the Fox SBT design extensively and there is no "problem" with it; in my opinion it's at least on par with the excellent A H Fox S x S. It's interesting to note that the robust Fox SBT was used to do some of the prototype work for the development of the Super-Fox. Maybe Zutz used the wrong word. I'd say its design (using a one-piece hammer with integral firing tip and cocking arm - actuated by a cocking slide) wouldn't translate well to an over/under because two such hammers rotating on the same hammer pin wouldn't work because of the different radii for the top and bottom barrels. And in that regard a design with cocking cams and/or hammer push rods makes more sense for an over/under. I think the low numbers for Fox SBT production are the result of its relatively late launch date, along with market dynamics after its launch. Silvers

[Researcher]

Ithaca already had two Grand American Handicap wins with their Flues SBT, Charles Larson in 1917 and John Henry 1918, before the A.H. Fox Gun Co. got their SBT on the market.

Zutz called the Super-Fox a "mill run waterfowling piece" so I don't place much credence on his scribblings.