Case Hardening/Case Colors ?

FRBRIT · Post by **FRBRIT** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:10 pm

I've watched several threads on the other boards about Case hardening and the resultant colors of the hardening process. I've been lead to believe that Fox shotguns for the most part used the traditional Bone charcoal pack case hardening process. Except for the late savage era guns that were cyanide colored.

Then I visited a well known southern California dealers shop and the owner stated that all Fox guns were cyanide hardened and that he has a man that has the process perfected that will give the original soft hues found on the original guns.

My question for the experts here is: 1. What was the process Fox used originally, Bone/Charcoal pack or Cyanide? 2. What data do you use to back-up your statements?

Ken Hurst · Post by **Ken Hurst** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:27 pm

It is my understanding that the early Fox guns were all bone & charcoal cased and later changed to cyanide casing as it is cheaper. I may stand corrected --- this statement isn't chiseled in stone. I there are guys who do cyanide casing (Ron's Gunshop)but haven't seen any guns done with it. Ken

birdawg · Post by **birdawg** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:57 pm

Turnbull does Fox restoration and they use bone and charcoal.
Not necessarily definitive evidence but a good indicator.

deweyvicknair · Post by **deweyvicknair** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:11 am

Fox guns were bone charcoal case-hardened until 1916. From then on, they were cyanide case-hardened. This is according to factory records. The reason the colors on early guns look the way that they do is because of the ratio of bone to wood in the pack mixture and the way the parts were prepped for finishing.
Hope this helps.

Dewey Vicknair
www.vicknairrestorations.com
565 Oak Lane
Lititz, PA 17543
717-626-4226

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:42 am

What Dewey said!! Once in a while on a later graded gun you will find a knowledgeable purchaser requesting bone & charcoal color case hardening.

Ken Hurst · Post by **Ken Hurst** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:56 am

Dewey, would you know the bone to charcoal ratio ? I have just finished gold inlaying and engraving a Sterlingworth fo myself & would like to have it color cased the origional way. Thanks, Ken

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:14 pm

Such a request documented in a Clark or Callahan letter?

mike campbell · Post by **mike campbell** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:24 pm

Pictures please, Mr. Ken, Pictures

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:18 pm

Yup!! I don't make this stuff up!

FRBRIT · Post by **FRBRIT** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:04 pm

Thanks Guys,

The reason I asked about this is that I've been looking at Fox guns for the last few years and have noticed most of the case colors looking the same for the most part. The only comparason that I can come up with is that most look similar to the cyanide coloring found on the Parker reproductions. These are soft hues with quite a bit of blue in them. Some look good and others are terrible and they all come off just by looking at them.

I have a CE 12ga that I had the C/C redone by one of the well know outfits. They assured me that their bone/charcoal process would replicate the original colors found on Foxes. The end result is very nice to look at but I still don't feel the colors are correct from looking at original Foxes with good C/C. Further more I can say that I haven't seen any redone Foxes that truly replicate the original look.

I'm just wondering if Fox used thier own special Pack or a special cyanide process thats been lost to father time.

I'm not wanting to stir-up the debate over the merits or demerits of recase hardening. I'm just curious about how Fox achieved the original colors and if they can truly be duplicated. Turnbull seems to have the Parker colors down fairly well, who's doing Foxes correctly?

Ken Hurst · Post by **Ken Hurst** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:21 pm

Mike, I don't know how to post pictures but can send them to you. Email me so I'll have your address to send them to. Ken (kenhurst2suddenlink.net)

Shooter · Post by **Shooter** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:10 pm

Since we're sorta on the subject, and if Dewey is still around, can colors be "reapplied" without bringing the temperature up to hardning levels? I've got a nice Ithaca with a micro millimeter warped frame due to a bad recasing job.

PeteM · Post by **PeteM** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:40 pm

Dewey,

Glad to see your posting here. I have admired your work for some time.
You obviously have developed some methods that are very much your own.
I have never seen a damascus black & white done the way you do them. Really outstanding work.

Pete

deweyvicknair · Post by **deweyvicknair** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:21 pm

Ken,
Sorry I'm so late replying to your post. Through much trial and error, I can reproduce the colors found on a pre-1916 Fox. I don't know if the bone to wood ratio is exactly what the factory used because that information has been lost to history but the results are the same. If I can be of help, don't hesitate to contact me.
Dewey Vicknair
www.VicknairRestorations.com
717-626-4226

deweyvicknair · Post by **deweyvicknair** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:30 pm

What part of your frame is warped? Excess warpage usually occurs when parts that were originally case hardened are not PROPERLY annealed. Unfortunately, case hardening colors can not be touched up. On the up side if the frame is not warped excessively it can be annealed, straightened and then re-case hardened. I don't very often get a chance to visit the site so feel free to contact me. Thanks, Dewey

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