Fox 16 gauge A grade questions.

[Grouser]

Hi All,

I have just acquired my first Fox gun. After having my gunsmith go over this gun, he said the chambers are 2 ¼” I thought they would be 2 ½”. Do you think I should get them opened to 2 ½”? Or would it be ok to shoot RTS low pressure loads the way it is?

Also he said the left barrel is chocked .033 (XF) and the right is .016 (Mod.) he thinks the right barrel has been opened. What are your thoughts on opening the chokes? He says the barrels are in very good condition; right dia. is .661 and left is .639. and minimum barrel wall thickness is .040. Firing pin protrusion is .060 for both.
There is a small crack in the stock at the wrist that I will get repaired. It appears to me that the wood has been refinished?


I will try to attach some pictures hopefully these will help.

Looks like a link is the best I can do right now.

http://s1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg536/vcgwp/

Thanks in advance,

Grouser

[Researcher]

Looks like a pretty nice 16-gauge A-Grade. "Normal" Philadelphia era Ansley H. Fox 16-gauge chambers are 2 7/16 inches deep, intended for the then "standard" in North America, 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge shells. The chamber is quite possibly a bit undersize and yout gunsmith's chamber gauge isn't going in as far as the true end of the chamber.

Chamber depth is considered to be the distance between the breech end of the barrels and the joint between the chamber body itself and the forcing cone, which reduces down to bore diameter. This is loosely based on the length of the "Fired" shell. Today, theoretically when the crimp opens on the shell being fired the end would land at the junction of the chamber and cone. Prior to WW-II many companies had the practice of holding the chamber about 1/8 inch shorter than the shell for which it was intended. Fly in the ointment is nominal measurements often differ from actual ones in both chambers and shells. A very good method I have found of measuring chambers without much outlay of cash, and is quite accurate enough for virtually any situation, is a common 6" flexible machinist's scale which you likely have. Hold the barrels with muzzles toward a light source, not necessarily a concentrated one a window is great, while looking into the breech and the cone will be thrown in a shadow. May have to move the barrels around a little until it is distinct. While still looking into the chamber simply slide the scale in until you observe the end coming flush with the shadow line & mark position of breech end with your thumb. Remove and read the scale. I usually repeat this a few times to insure I am getting a consistent reading, but you will be amazed how accurate this can be done. While I own a Galazan chamber gauge, I use this more often than not. The chamber body itself has a taper of about .005" per inch. Sometimes chambers were cut with slightly worn reamers giving a slight undersize chamber. If the chamber is a bit undersize a gauge made to "industry" standards will not go in to the true depth of the chamber. A.H. Fox Gun Co. shotguns are known for having tight chambers. The machinist’s scale method can be more accurate. Nominal 16-gauge bore is .662". While .661" is certainly reasonable, .639" would be a very tight bore for a 16-gauge!! Bores in my 16-gauge Fox guns run from .656" to .664"

You can join the A.H. Fox Collectors Association and get a free look up of the production card for your gun, or you could order a letter on it from the Savage historian,

John T. Callahan
Arms Historian
P.O. Box 82
Southampton, MA 01073.

For $40 Graded or $30 Sterlingworth (last prices I've seen quoted) you can get a factory letter on most any Ansley H. Fox shotgun (Philadelphia or Utica) from John. Most all of the first 9600 graded 12-gauge cards are missing. The information exists on the factory work-order cards, probably 85+% of which still exist. Send him the complete serial number and a check, and he can do the rest. That would tell you the specifications of the gun when it left the factory.

[Grouser]

Wow Researcher,

That was quick, thank you. I will give the machinist’s scale a try. I am going off of my gunsmiths hand written notes on the bore size, it may indeed be .659 instead of .639, I will give him a call on Monday to confirm. Do you have any opinion on if opening the chokes would hurt the value of the gun? Also do you think the stock has been refinished? I know the pictures aren’t the best, but it seems the finish is fairly light in color and it looks like there is stain on the butt plate.

Thanks again I do appreciate your input,

Grouser

[Researcher]

To the fussiest of collectors, opening the chokes probably has a slight detrimental effect on value. That said, many of the Fox guns in my collection/accumulation that I shoot the most have had the chokes opened. I don't have any problem with opening the chokes on a rather common smallbore gun in the more common barrel lengths. I wouldn't go having the chokes opened on a high condition 30- or 32-inch smallbore Fox.

I can't really say anything on the stock finish. It certainly is in the same color range as some of my A-/AE-Grades of this vintage.

[Grouser]

Thanks again. The checks are in the mail to the Collectors Association and Mr. Callahan. I look forward to finding out more about this gun and the next one! Hopefully the wife isn’t on this board!

[fox-admin]

Thanks for the support. The wood finish sure looks original to me for that era Fox but it's had to tell just looking at pictures. Is that just a scratch in the wrist running from the trigger guard back into the checkering, hopefully it is not a crack. Very nice gun. Craig

[Ithaca33]

First of all your gun is beautiful! I have my eyes out for a 16 or 20 A grade before pheasant season this year.

What should I expect to pay for a gun in similar condition to this one? A range of fair current market value would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Pat

[jmc]

Very nice A grade Grouser. How long are the barrels? How much drop in the stock? I wouldn't necessaryily call .033 "extra full" rather just 'full' and not a bad choke combination (m/f) on 28" or longer bbls. Fox choke taperes tend to be very long and opening them up can certainly shorten the taper - perhaps this is why your smith thinks the right bbl was opened to modified. That gun doesn't appear to be fired much so I have my doubts... and do hope you post the results when you get your letter or card lookup. Defnitely shoot it before you go having chokes altered. You may shoot it very well as-is and in that case, won't have to worry about altering it's original factory choking until you can confirm this information from the factory production card. Shoot 2 1/2" RSTs or other short, low-pressure shells if you can get them. If your smith really knows Fox guns, then he could be trusted to fix the crack in the stock but otherwise, I'd ask around here for qualified smith's - there may be one withing driving distance from your home. It's not a difficult job to remove the stock but why take the chance of having someone mess up what appears to be an unaltered gun. The stain on the buttplate may acutally be varnish that was put on the stock over the stain. I've seen this on some original condition Fox guns.

Best,
jmc

[Grouser]

Fox-Admin-unfortunately that is a crack. I will get it fixed, if anyone here has a recommendation for a stock person in the upper-Midwest, I live in Minnesota, I would appreciate it.

Ithaca33-This gun is an example of how not to buy a gun on line! I did everything I shouldn’t have but I think I came out ok on it. There are members here with much more experience than I, who can give you a market value for this type of gun. Hopefully they will chime in.

JMC- The barrels are 26”, dimensions are LOP 14 1/3”, drop at (C) 1 ½”, at (H) 2 ¾” looks like it has some cast on for a left-handed shooter but it comes up great the way it is. I will hold off on getting the chokes opened at this point. But I enjoy hunting Ruffed Grouse over pointing dogs and I do like a more open chokes. I am waiting on the letter on the gun to help determine my next steps. I will be using the RTS low pressure spreader loads in it. Thanks for the info on the varnish on the butt plate, not something I have ever seen. As stated above, I would like to get some recommendations for a stock repairer, my smith says he can fix it, but if I want it blended into the wood he would refer me to someone else.

Thanks for everyone’s input,

Grouser

[Mark Dube]

Nice find John!

[Grouser]

Hi Mark,

No John here.

Got my letter back on the 16 ga. nothing out of the ordinary in the letter. A grade, 16 gauge, 26" barrels Modified (R) & Full (L), 14-1/8" LOP, 2-3/4" drop at heel, 5lbs 12oz. Half pistole grip. Completed on June 30, 1925. Shipped to White Hardware Co. no address listed.

I have decided to leave her as she is, other than having my gunsmith fix the crack in the stock. Hope to shot some grouse over my old dog this fall if he still has it in him.

[Twice Barrel]

I have decided to leave her as she is, other than having my gunsmith fix the crack in the stock. Hope to shot some grouse over my old dog this fall if he still has it in him.

Wise decision. You might want to have the stock glass bedded whey you have the stock repaired. It's an invisible fix and may save you some problems in the future especially if you plan to use heavy recoiling ammunition (high velocity loads with heavy shot charges). I have a couple of Foxes that have required this repair myself.

If the chokes are too tight for your liking you may want to consider using spreader loads. I always carry a few spreaders to use when the birds are holding tight in heavy cover and quick shots are required.