OK what should I do ?

[eightbore]

Don't worry about resale or the customer pool. As you know, if the gun is built well, safety or no safety, someone will beg you to be first in line when you offer it for sale. My present project gun is being finished without safety and I don't expect it is going to go begging when I offer it for sale. Murphy

[uncletom]

In some 54 years of intimacy with Ansley's finest I can honestly say that I have seen at least 2 dozen plus safety less guns that had their slots plugged, and most were special ordered that way from scratch. Here is the first photograph that I put my fingures on of one that I have seen. It is on a "B" grade smallbore, currently owned by a board member.

[Researcher]

My experience is opposite of Silvers. All of the no safety Fox doubles I've seen had a plugged slot. And, I know at least some of those I've seen "lettered" as being "no safety".

[Silvers]

Thanks Uncletom for posting the pic. I am making an assumption on your identity, and if correct you certainly have superb credentials to comment on this topic.

Just some additional thoughts. It seems that Fox may have done up safetyless guns both ways. The pic posted by Uncletom shows what is undoubtedly a factory plugged slot. It looks like the plug is a tight "Interference" fit, and guys like me with a machine shop background might wonder if it's crosspinned inside? Take a look at the end of the plug that is shown. It has a slight taper on both sides, and probably took a lot of hand work to get it fitted that closely. That would be more costly from a production point of view - than just leaving the top frame tang uncut during the machining operations. This suggests to me that at times, Fox took frames that were already fully machined and adapted them to current orders for safetyless guns. On the other hand, safetyless SxS Foxes without a plug in the slot probably had their orders filled using a frame that was done up for that order.

I and probably many of us have seen Foxes converted to safetyless after they left the factory, using plugs that were more or less loosely fitted. Uncletom's pic is the first Fox I've seen with a factory plugged slot. Thanks again Tom for your comments which certainly add to the weath of information on these fine guns. I find it interesting that the pic you posted is a safetyless B grade smallbore, which is perhaps not the gun of choice for most trap or live bird shooters. I am assuming the B grade was made up before skeet was developed? Another safetyless hunting gun? Frank

[MARSHFELLOW]

I dont know who has superb credentials and who doesnt but I have about 30+ very rough unfinished receivers and ALL of them have the safety slot cut in the top tangs. These parts are original Fox from the factory and are a long long way from being finished as far as machining.....yet they have the safety slots in the top tangs. It is possible that when an order came in for a safety-less special order they started from scratch but I suspect that they may have gone "both ways". It seems to me that the world of Foxdom is not an exact science but more or less a work in process. These fellas were making guns to be shot and enjoyed and probably never dreamed that we would be analyzing the parts and the records "under a microscope" nearly 100 years later.

tjw

[Researcher]

Tom, that is the truth!!! Good summary. Years ago the Bill Headricks and I discussed no-safety Fox double guns at great length, and because all any of us had seen had the plug, we postulated that that slot may have been somehow used in aligning the forging for various drilling, profiling and milling operations. The tang Frank showed is very interesting. Maybe some of you guys with access to "no safety" Fox double guns could get together on an article for the Newsletter?

[eightbore]

All we need to "prove a point" is to find one safetyless gun with no provision for a slot as viewed from the underside. I also have a little machining background and I don't understand why those slots are so visible. Any halfway competent machinist or mechanic could make the slot absolutely invisible. I guess it just wasn't of high priority at the Fox and Parker factories.

[Researcher]

P.S. on many of the early Regular frame L.C. Smiths they had the two-piece top tang with the piece for the safety spliced onto the frame forgings that were originally made for a hammer gun. So, that piece probably had nothing else to do with the frame machining.

[jolly bill]

I don't have any pictures of this particular gun but I once owned a 12 gauge CE grade with 32" barrels, bored F/F, SST, AE and straight stock with no safety. Gun number 18554. As I recall, the slot was filled and nicely engraved over but still quite visible. Wonder if the factory work order card confirms same??

Sadly, it left my grasp about 30 years ago and I'm hoping it has a good home.

Jolly

[scaupman]

x

[Doug Mann]

Thank you all for your input. I didn't know that this topic would end up being as interesting as it became.
I hope this doesn't come across as a "cop out" but I'm going to do the plug solution. If I ever want to reverse my decision it will be much easier to undo and I have the parts to make it a safety gun again.

I should mention again the reason I was attracted to the gun in the beginning was the two sets of barrels (30" and 32") and the high demensions (1 3/8 DOC and 2 1/8 DOH). The buttstock and forends are serialized to the gun and look Foxy so I have every reason to believe that they are original to the gun.

Again, thank you everyone for you responses.

Doug