What do you look for when buying a sterlingworth?

[mamohr686]

Hello everyone, I'm new here and wanted to ask the experts some questions regarding a 16g sterlingworth that I'm thinking about buying. The SN# is 3612XX which according the doublegun site puts it at 1926 for a year of manufacture. It's a basic model with DT and Pistol grip, non-ejector model. I'm getting some pics sent but the owner says it's perfect mechanically but was refinished at some point and the SN was engraved into the parts (rather than stamped). What do you look for when your looking at gun like this? are there any common problems in fox guns of this era? Any idea of the value of the gun? I would guess in the $800 range myself. I do shoot some LC smith guns so I have an Idea of how to check out the general condition but I'm totally new to Fox guns. I"m a little shady on the history, but would this be a Utica gun?

[eightbore]

It would generally be the kind of gun it says on the barrels, either Philadelphia or Utica, the exception being a gun that was rebarrelled. Your estimate of date would normally mean a Philly gun but if rebarrelled at Utica, it could have Utica barrel markings which would make it a Utica gun to an uninitiated buyer. At the minimum, you should buy McIntosh's book and read it before spending too much money. You say you are experienced in judging condition. That is a big help. If you are looking for value and resale possibilities, you need that experience or you need to avoid refinished guns. At least you have a realistic idea of what the gun you are searching for is worth. Some think it is worth a bit more.

[Researcher]

A variation I don't already have.

[mamohr686]

The owner sent me some pics of the actual gun and we are trying to decide on a fair price. I did notice that it doesn't have any case colors left and also the stock was refinished possibly with tru-oil and filled in the checkering. What would you guys pay for the gun based on the pics and description? The barrels are marked philli.

[Silvers]

For whatever it's worth, the serial number that's engraved on the barrel flat looks like it was crudely done. The others aren't too good either. The difference in finish on the barrel flats makes it look like someone took a milling cut to remove the serial number, and then renumbered. Why is the Fox Proof mark stamped and the serial number engraved? I really wonder if it's a factory job or if someone cobbled the gun together from parts?

I just sold a 362xxx 16 gauge gun dated very close to yours and the serial numbers are all stamped, not engraved. That includes the numbers on the barrel flats, water table and the forend iron. Of course some genuine Fox guns had engraved serial numbers but all I've ever seen were nicely engraved by someone who knew what he was doing.

I'm not sure on this but I think there's an issue with the BATF if the original serial number on the frame was removed and then renumbered, even if the same number was used. I remember reading somewhere that you must get a BATF letter approving that work. If the serial number on the water table is factory, okay. If not, maybe you'd better check on this.

In any case I personally wouldn't buy the gun for any price above what the parts are worth, even if it functions okay. Silvers

[FRBRIT]

I'm a long way's from being an expert on Fox guns, but I own several and have looked at one heck of a lot of them over the last several years. Over the years of owning and trading guns, I've developed a sense of looking for "what's wrong with this picture" when looking a gun over for possible purchase.

When looking at the pictures of the SW your interested in one thing just jumped out at me. Other may weigh in and correct me, but what I find wrong with the picture is the serial numbers on this gun.

All lower grade Foxes I've looked at have the serial numbers stamped with actual number stamp tools. This gun has them poorly re-marked with some sort of etching or engraving tool. When looking at the barrel flats you can see the bluing missing where the old number was filed off and the new one engraved, the same is true on the fore-arm #'s

What this add's up to in my book is a gun that has been made up from pieces and part's from other gun's.

Sterlingworths are the most common of all Fox shotguns and with a little searching you can find nice original examples at fair prices and if it were me I would take a pass on this gun unless I could get it at a bargain basement price.

Gunsmithing is expensive and if this one has issues it could cost more than the gun is worth to fix.

[Researcher]

It appears to me that this stock and reciever had this considerably earlier barrels and forearm fitted to it. This set of barrels and forearm have the Fox & Kremmer patented forearm fastening. A gun of this vintage (circa 1927) would most definately have the F.T. Russel patent forearm fastening.

See the middle and bottom guns in the lower right picture here --

http://www.foxcollectors.com/id%20locations.htm

P.S. Philadelphia era Sterlingworths left North 18th Street and Windrim Avenue with flat-topped checkering that wasn't very deep.

[mamohr686]

Thanks everyone for the help, I really appreciate it. Basically I was looking for a shooter with the intent of a restoration or upgrade once my kids can start hunting. I wonder if I would run into any problems trying to get a gun like this restored later on? I guess even if the gun was ever restored it would never reach the full value (or the amount you put into it)due the fact it's a parts gun. I was googling altered SN# and came up with a few websites. One goverment website indicated that it was a felony to alter the SN on a gun but this didn't hit the books until the 60's. I wonder if a gun like this would be grandfathered out of the requlations?

[Gordon Disharoon]

This could also be a gun that was stolen in the past and the s/n put on with an electric engraveing tool. I have heard of this happening in the past. The theif trying to vilify the gun with a lot of serail numbers.

[Researcher]

We didn't get pictures of the serial number on the watertable and the trigger guard backstrap. If they are "right" I'll stick with my theory of an older set of barrels and forearm fitted to the receiver of this serial number. If the ones on the trigger guard and watertable are also redone, that IS a Federal violation.