Philadelphia Arms Fox A grade advice needed

[Capt. ORourke]

Hello,
First thank you for hosting this great site. I have learned a great deal already but have much more to learn.

Next I would share that my neighbor lady told me last summer that she had a few gun parts in a shoebox if I wanted them. She said the gun had belonged to her grandfather and that if I didn't want them she was going to throw them away. I replied "sure" and what she sent over was a receiver for a double barreled shotgunmarked "Fox". The box contained most of the parts behind the barrel but no stock. She said she didn't have the barrels or didn't think she had any barrels. I accepted the parts and began hoping that at some point she would stumble on the barrels.

Yesterday she told me that because she had family over for Thanksgiving she had cleaned her entire house. In cleaning the barrels had been found in the closet of an upstairs bedroom. If I wanted them I could have them. I of course said "yes please".

The barrels carry the same serial number as all the other parts 139X. From your site this would be a 1906 model and from the pictures and descriptions here it would be an "A" model. It has the proper markings or Krupp fluid steel barrels.

Ok, sound good so far? Well there are some issues. First the barrels were at some point in the past were "cleaned" with either steel wool or some sort of sandpaper. This removed the finish and let some rust set in. Next as mentioned there is no butstock. The forearm is there but has been dissassembled. In fact all of the screws from the stock and forearm seem to be missing. I do not think any of the firing mechanism is missing but without any schematics or diagrams I have no idea.

Oh, I forgot to mention this gun is a twelve gauge and does have an extractor for the shells built in.

As you can see I don't know much about this but would like to see if you folks think it is worth restoring.
I guess my questions would be along the lines of where would I get a roughed in stock that would be appropriate and fit this gun? Does anyone have information on the internal workings so that I can seeif everything is here? Also, would it be easier to get parts for this that are already made or would I have to have them custom made? And finally, is it worth it? I am not sure what the restoration effort would cost as opposed to what the gun would be worth if restored. If it is an upside down proposition perhaps I should just restock the gun and keep it as is as an oddity.

Your input would be most appreciated.
Thank you,
Capt. ORourke

[George Lander]

Hello Capt. O'Rourke: It sound like you have a very early A.H. Fox A Grade. Yes, you should take it to a competent gunsmith and get a price on restoration. Tell us where you are located and perhaps we can recommend someone.

Best Regards, George

[Researcher]

Here is the page describing the lock mechanism from the 1905 Philadelphia Arms Co. catalogue --



Here is the page describing the bolting from the 1905 catalogue --



There is no diagram in the catalogue showing the triggers and the safety mechanism, and there is no parts picture. IMHO restoring an A-Grade Philadelphia Arms Co. gun from the condition you describe would not be in any way cost effective. You'd be much better off to sell the parts on one of the auction sites and keep the receiver as a paper weight.

I would like to know the complete serial number and the length of the barrels, so I can add the remains of this gun to my table of observed Philadelphia Arms Co. guns.

My articles on Philadelphia Arms Co. were in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Thirteen, Issue 4, and in Volume Three, Issue 2, Fall 2010 of the A.H. Fox Collectors Association Newsletter.

[Capt. ORourke]

Hello and thank you for your responses.

Fron the pictures of the diagram and from having the lock mechanism in hand I can tell you it is all still together and functioning. This is very encouraging to me as it micht mean only screws are missing to hold the gun to the stock and a slave pin in the forstock lock mechanism.

I believe that a full restoration may be unfeasible due to cost vs value after restoration but I am wondering if the gun might we worth having polished and reblued if the gunsmith deems all of the major parts to be in functioning condition. I understand that polishing the metal would remove some if not all of the engraving but there are always tradeoffs....

For this particular gun though it may be worth restoring to a functional condition even if the astetic aspects are lost. There is a photo here in our museum of the original owner holding the gun next what appears to be a very successful pheasant hunt. He was part of a local Men's Hunting Club and the photo shows the members circa 1910. From what the lady at the museum told me no one knows what happened to the other shotguns in the photo so this particular one has a bit of local historic value. I will have to mull over the cost to fix it because parting it out just runs contrary to my value of local history...

To answer the questions posed to me I can tell you I am in the Omaha, NE area. If you can suggest a competent gunsmith in the area I would be most appreciative.

I would love to have the name of a company or ompanies that could offer a stock that would fit this gun. Do you think Fajen in Missouri would be a good place to start? I see shotguns mentioned here that are a bit newer that look very similar. Would I need to ask for that that stock for this gun? Help in this area would be much appreciated.

I am all for sharing the information and in that vein I can offer that the final number of the serial number is "3" and barrels are of a 30 inch length.

I think I have started a project here and with a bit of help I may be able to move forward. If I do move forward I will post pictures of the project as things get done. Thank you and I look forward to your replies.

Capt. ORourke

[Twice Barrel]

I would love to have the name of a company or ompanies that could offer a stock that would fit this gun. Do you think Fajen in Missouri would be a good place to start? I see shotguns mentioned here that are a bit newer that look very similar. Would I need to ask for that that stock for this gun? Help in this area would be much appreciated.

ICapt. ORourke

Sorry to say the Fajen company no longer exists as you and I remember it but there are folks that were employees of Fajen and Bishop still in the business and doing excellent work. I would recommend that you contact Donnie Gemmes at Show-Me-Gunstocks in Warsaw, Mo. His reputation is excellent. As far as re doing the metal I recommend Buck Hamlin in Pevely, MO (636) 479-4304. Buck specializes in restoration of fine American double guns and he has done some work for me that borders on miraculous. A new stock and fresh black will run upwards of $500.00 if you just want a stock turned to match the old one and most likely better than $1,100.00 if the stock head has to fitted to the frame. It will be another couple hundred for finishing and checkering. If you do not intend to do the finish and checkering work yourself I recommend Clint Meir in Lee Summit, MO. He charges a flat hourly rate which I really like.

[Capt. ORourke]

Thank you,
I will contact these folks during the week when they are at work.
This is exactly the kind of information I was hoping to receive - on all of my posts.

I say again - To those who responded thank you all your help. It is much appreciated.

Capt. ORourke

[james-l]

Donnie has machined a stock for a PAC Fox for me from a pattern stock I have, he may have kept a pattern from it, if not you can use my pattern stock. The regular Fox stock will not work on a PAC Fox, if you need to use my pattern contact me , my email is in my profile.

Jim A.

[Capt. ORourke]

Thank you Jim,

Honestly this was my biggest worry about the entire project. I understand that each stock is different and the thought of trying to create one from scratch - or pay someone to do that as I will have to do was very daunting. Knowing that you not only have this but would be willing to loan it for this purpose is tremendous.

I will contact him to se if he has the pattern and if not will contact you about borrowing yours. This offer is most appreciated.

Thank you,
Capt. ORourke

[teckbot]

Hey Capt.

I have a similar vintage gun that will be restored to original factory specs, s/n 1327 with 26" barrels. I have posted some pics of the frame in my earlier posts and will update as the project progresses. Please post some pics if you can, always a treat to see the old guns.

Thanks and good luck with your project

Gabor

[Capt. ORourke]

Hello,
The project has now started and I am posting a "before" picture for you - at least trying to post it.

As you can see this gun is very very rough but I am hopeful it can be brought back to life. I have no illusions that this will be a top end firearm but it is my hope that it will at least be presentable and more importantly usable.

I will post more pictures as we move forward. Thank you again everyone for your input as it has helped me get this project up and running.

Capt. O'Rourke

[ASavageFox]

Well I commend you for taking on this project... I just had the stocks refinished on a PAC gun only 29 serials later than yours! I own 2 A grade PAC guns and really enjoy the history. I even got to handle a set of barrels for gun number 51 this weekend.... they were not in the best of shape (missing extractor, no blue) but interestingly, they appeared to have just a touch more engraving than the simple line on the barrel breech of an A grade! Hard to say what they were once part of since ht parts were never marked with the grade... at least not that I have seen. Here is one of my PAC guns after a little stock refinishing

[ASavageFox]

also if someone could post pics of the breech end of a B or C grade, it would be appreciated.

And the barrels to gun 51 are for sale if anyone has a set of barrels that were cut... I did not take any measurements as I was really not interested for the amount of work that would have been needed to mate them and refinish them. I can put someone in touch with the seller though.

[eightbore]

I think there are pictures of graded PAC guns on this website.

[ASavageFox]

I think there are pictures of graded PAC guns on this website.

There is a pic of a C and a D on the home page if that is what you are referring to and they show the breech end well enough but it does not match up with the barrels off of gun 51 so I was hoping maybe a B grade (or maybe they changed the C grade) would be the ticket. I could not find a picture of a B or any other Cs on this site using the search function.

[Capt. ORourke]

Wow the wood on your A grade looks amazing. I am sure the wood I will get not be nearly as nice but I am hoping that it will still be presentable. I had not seen any closeups of what this should look like until now. I have been wondering what the original forestock I with my gun looked like prior to the checkering being worn down. Simply outstanding. Thank you for posting pictures and as promised when something good happens with my A grade I will post some more pictures for all to see.
Thank you, Capt. O'Rourke