2-5/8 chambers ?

[HardCash]

I just purchased my 1st Fox and it's a Sterlingworth 12 gauge, 2-5/8" chambers.
Is is OK to shoot light target and light game loads from the major U.S. manufacturers that measure 2-3/4" in shot size 7-1/2 thru 9's ??

Ok, here's what I found out.
1. RST 12 gauge 2-1/2" Maxllite 1oz #8's has 6400 PSI and the RST 12 gauge 2-1/2" Paper-lite 7/8 oz has 6000 PSI, according to RST.
2. B and P (Italian made) 12 gauge sub-sound 12 gauge 2.62" 7/8oz #7-1/2 has 5800 PSI according to B and P.
3. I shoot Remington Managed-Recoil 12 gauge 2-3/4" #8-1/2 in my Cowboy Action Shooting Coach shotgun and the felt recoil is similar to the B and P's, but I don't know the PSI.
4. The Winchester Low Noise-Low Recoil 26 gm oz. in 2-3/4 #8 with a velocity of 980 at 3 feet would be another choice with similar felt recoil to the Remingtons in my opinion.
5. As a note, the B and P, Remington, and Winchesters mentioned above will not function a semi-automatic shotgun reliable. I don't know about the RST shells, yet.

Here is what I concluded from all the great answers to my orginal question above.
1. It is not advisable to lengthen the chamber on the 2-5/8" Fox.
2. Any light load shotgun shells with lead shot from 2-3/4" length and shorter will be fine and not be damaging to a well mantained Fox 12 gauge with 2-5/8" chambers.

[ASavageFox]

yep....

[Silvers]

I strongly disagree. All modern shotshell boxes have prominent WARNINGS printed on them, something to the effect "use these shotshells only in modern shotguns in good condition originally designed and chambered for this gauge and shell length". I strongly advise you to heed this SAFETY WARNING. No original Fox shotgun can be considered to be modern, the newest ones were made ~70 years ago. And 2-5/8" is not 2-3/4". If your new Sterlingworth is in good condition as verified by a competent gunsmith, you should use loads that develop pressures no greater than shotshells that were marketed when the gun was manufactured. Silvers

[HardCash]

I have used some B and P sub-sound shells ( http://www.bandpusa.com ) that are 2.62" long in 12 gauge, 7-1/2 at 1100 FPS for Cowboy Action shooting.
Even though these are modern shell, they are the correct length. Would they be safe ?
If not, where can I find shells that I can use to enjoy my Sterlingworth for upland birds and Sporting Clays ??
Is there any reason I couldn't have a competent gunsmith lengthen the chamber?

[ASavageFox]

I strongly disagree. All modern shotshell boxes have prominent WARNINGS printed on them, something to the effect "use these shotshells only in modern shotguns in good condition originally designed and chambered for this gauge and shell length". I strongly advise you to heed this SAFETY WARNING. No original Fox shotgun can be considered to be modern, the newest ones were made ~70 years ago. And 2-5/8" is not 2-3/4". If your new Sterlingworth is in good condition as verified by a competent gunsmith, you should use loads that develop pressures no greater than shotshells that were marketed when the gun was manufactured. Silvers

If Silvers says don't do it then believe him... much more an expert then I... (and by a WHOLE LOT)... I should have stated... A lot of ppl say that it is just fine to shoot 2 3/4 light loads from old Fox guns with 2 5/8" chambers...

[HardCash]

I've should have check this out before I mailed the check. Since the Sterlingworth is not considered a Modern shotgun,
does that mean I cannot use any modern shotgun shell even if they're the right length, like the B and P's 2.62"???
Does anyone make shotgun shells for these Sterlingworth or did I buy a Wall Hanger ?

[Silvers]

In your first post you asked about using shot sizes from 7-1/2 to 9. As a sporting clays shooter myself I read into that (perhaps incorrectly) that you're interested in volume clays shooting with your Sterlingworth and want to be set for any/all target presentations. Stresses from volume shooting add up quickly and it's a lot tougher on a gun than occasional use while hunting, etc. Once your Fox is checked out by your gunsmith, the main consideration is pressure of the load. I don't know what pressure the B&P shells you referenced are loaded to, however the current SAAMI max service pressure for 12 gauge is 11,500 psi to function in gas guns, and that's what you should expect even with light target and game loads, particularly promotional ones. Askins reports in his excellent 1929 book that service pressure of the relatively new Super-X loads was thousands of psi below that. No responsible person is going to give you the green flag to shoot modern shells when the WARNING on the box specifically warns that you shouldn't.

Don't despair, Sterlingworths are fine shotguns. Most people I know who are using Sterlingworths and graded Foxes for regular shooting are using shells loaded to low pressures, either factory low pressure shells like RST's, or their own handloaded shells. There are other companies that specialize in low pressure short shotshells for vintage doubles, I see their adverts in the mags. If you're interested in handloading you may want to research what pressure these companies are loading to and use that as a guide. Silvers

[DoubleGun]

Hardcash,
I know this is going to stir up the pot, this topic always does, but here is my take on the short chamber/old gun/ low pressure load paradox that you have just run full into.
First of all, I deeply believe we have to respect the age of our guns and not feed them just any over the counter shell. SAMI max pressure requirements are a lot higher than when our guns were new. I solve the problem by loading my own so I know what sort of shells I'm putting into the gun. Other folks solve the problem by buying low pressure loads. The best are RST's. They make shells designed to be shot in guns much older than ours. So you don't own a wall hanger, you own a fine shotgun that will last a couple of more lifetimes with just reasonable care.
In the real world our guns have been proof tested with any kind of shell available on thousands of hardware store shelves for the last century or so. It is only quite recently that people like us have come to appreciate these works of art that shoot. Their original owners, and the owners after that and the owners after that bought these guns as all around shooters - anything that needed shooting from rats to deer was shot. With whatever load the local hardware store had. Think about how many rifled slugs have run down the average Sterlingworth. Each one of those slugs is a proof load of sorts. How about duck loads? Goose loads? These guns have already had nastier stuff through them than what you are going to shoot. They have been proofed by the school of necessity - the need to put food on the table no matter what size it is or what load it takes to do it.
There is hard data that says our "old" guns were made pretty well. Quite a while ago Sherman Bell did a piece called "Finding Out for Myself" for Double Gun Journal. The premis was: take one Parker GH damascus from the turn of the last century and keep feeding it ever higher proof loads until the gun blew up. These were professional proof loads, the gun was in less than great condition. It took 30,000 psi to blow the barrels, two or three times what a hot modern shell produces. And these were damascus tubes on a mid level American gun.
Next in the series was a test, using an instrumented test gun, of "Do long shells in short chambers produce high pressures? He even put 3" shells in 2 1/2" chambers. The biggest rise he got was around 1000 psi over what the shell produced in a proper chamber. Conclusion was that if the shell was of appropriate pressure for the gun, shooting it in a shorter chamber was not going endanger the gun or significantly raise chamber presures.
The latest from Sherman came out in the present issue of Double Gun Journal. This time he took some of the cheapest, scrappiest, most broken down wall hangers he could find and subjected them all (6 guns) to modern proof loads, the ones that modern guns must stand up to. None of these wall hangers failed to pass modern proof. So even wall hangers from the last century could pass modern proof, even damascus barreled ones.
So do I shoot shells making around 5-6000 psi in my Foxes? Yup, they are more pleasant to shoot and such shells are much easier on the gun. The pheasants still die, the clays still break, when I do my part. Would I expect to blow up any of my Foxes by shooting factory shells in them? Absolutely not. I've got too many properly instrumented tests by the good Mr. Bell telling me that our guns were made really well way back then.
Enjoy your new gun.
Cheers, Pete

[George Lander]

HardCash: There is a lot of good advice here especially from Frank. Respect your Fox and it will respect you, and yours, and theirs, and so on. RST 2 5/8" low pressure loads are the way to go and they will do the job.

Just My Humble Opinion........George

[Twice Barrel]

As a tag along I will add my two cents to the debate. There is some evidence that the design pressure for early Fox, Parker and Lefever guns was in the 8500 to 9500 range and the maximum shot charges of the day were 1 1/4 ounce, 3 3/4 dram equivalent (1260 fps) in a 2 5/8 inch shell for the 12 gauge, 1 1/8 ounce, 3 1/4 dram equivalent (1295 fps) in a 2 9/16th inch shell for the 16 and 1 ounce in a 2 1/2 inch shell for the 20 gauge so you can see these guns were built to handle a pretty stiff load. Shooting loads within those parameters your Fox will last you another century.

[Silvers]

Thanks Pete, George and Twice for your comments. Here's one last one to add to this topic and I'll sign off.

From the highly respected Mr. Sherman Bell in one of his Wall Hanger proof testing articles, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2006, page 37.... "I recommend that you use loads that develop pressure similar to the ammunition that was available back when your gun was newly made". End of story! Frank

[HardCash]

I've looked at RST shells and they about $10 per box. As I've mentioned above, I used the B and P's for my Cowboy action shooting. The B and P sub-sound's 12 gauge measure 2.62 in length with 7/8 oz shot
in #7-1/2 with 1100 FPS, but I don't know the PSI ? These are a real powder puff load as far as recoil.
I plan to us this Sterlingworth to occasionally hunt quail and use in Cowboy Action 'side' matches. Side matches are usually a Trap or Skeet type event the day before the actual match and only one box of shells are used. Since I will not be running a lot of ammo through it and from everyones replies, don't ya'll think I'd be OK with the B and P load described above ??

[Researcher]

FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the recently published book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A recent issue of The Double Gun Journal carried an article on tests showing no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

[Fin2Feather]

Pressure seems to be a spec the shotshell manufacturers are reluctant to reveal. Is there any compiled data on the pressure for some of the common off-the-shelf 12,16 and 20 gauge loads from Remington, Winchester, etc?

[Researcher]

Since the mid-1920s, shortly after the Super-X type ammo loaded with progressively burning powders came on the market, the major U.S. ammo manufacturers have loaded to SAAMI specs --