Fox Chamber length

[007highfield]

I would appreciate some Fox experience to determine the chamber length on a Fox: The Fox in question is an A grade, 20ga., M/F 28" with
serial # 202***. Is there any identifying area on the barrel flat, receiver or other place that would denote 2 1/2 or 2 3/4" chambers? A 2 3/4"
shell slides smoothly into both chambers, but there is no clearly identifiable place to determine the manufactured chamber length. I have
read that the Fox Krupp barrels can handle the pressure of the 2 3/4" shells in a manufactured 2 1/2" chamber; however, i would feel more
comfortable knowing the experienced answers on both these issues. Appreciate your clarification ... 007 Highfield.

[Researcher]

FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. From the 1914 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalog --

That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A series by Sherman Bell in The Double Gun Journal showed no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

[bogue]

very interesting! I was just contemplating chamber length in my 16 ga the other week. I took it to my local shop and they stated it measured out @ 2-3/4" as I believe mine is a 1928 release SER#302xxx.
My Brother in Law ran Federal ammo through it in 2-3/4 & 1065 fps bird shot. I plan on using Fiocchi 2-3/4" 7.5 shot 1 oz @ 1065 fps for Dove.

[Researcher]

Hard to say how many Fox chambers have been lengthened since they left North 18th Street & Windrim Avenue.

Chamber length should equate to the length of the fired shell. Loaded shell is much shorter and can easily slide into a shorter chamber.

[007highfield]

Thanks for your responses... Found Brownells' chamber gauge set to confirm my 2 1/2" thoughts for
pre-1930 20 gauges.

[Researcher]

I have a 1920 vintage AE-Grade 20-gauge that cards "chamber for 2 3/4" shell" and measuring the chambers shows 2 5/8 inch.

[Silvers]

very interesting! I was just contemplating chamber length in my 16 ga the other week. I took it to my local shop and they stated it measured out @ 2-3/4" as I believe mine is a 1928 release SER#302xxx.
My Brother in Law ran Federal ammo through it in 2-3/4 & 1065 fps bird shot. I plan on using Fiocchi 2-3/4" 7.5 shot 1 oz @ 1065 fps for Dove.

Original A H Fox 16 bore chambers will usually measure 2-7/16" or a tad less and thus a full 2-3/4" shell can overlap the relatively short/sharp angled forcing cone by close to 5/16" and raise pressure. To compound matters the Federal (purple) and Fiocchi (blue) 16 gauge hulls will typically measure very close to 2.75" whereas the Remington Game Load hulls (black) are usually about 2.60". Unfortunately except for old stock where it might be found the Remington 16 ga GL factory loads are unobtainable nowadays.

Bogue, the Federal and Fiocchi shotshells are both listed with 1-ounce at 1165 speed, not 1065, but the Fiocchis are pretty snotty as compared with Federal or even Remington 1-ounce/1200 Game Loads. I shoot enough to be able to feel the difference in recoil. The Fiocchis have the CIP emblem on the shell box and velocity is probably measured per the CIP protocol and math corrected whereas the American shells are per SAAMI. Anyway, I don't use Fiocchis for repetitive shooting in lightweight 16b Foxes with 2-3/4" chambers because recoil is a bit much as compared to the other two cited. JME.

frank

[bogue]

Silvers,

Thank You for that valuable info! I want to hunt this gun but not ruin it, as it is not a collector piece but has significant family value. I do not want to ruin it, so I have stopped buying the fiocchi shells (in this market they were a good deal), and I will begin looking for Federal. I also have my Great Uncle's Remington 1100 in 20 ga coming in May, so the 16 ga Fox & the Rem 20ga will serve double duty for this Fall's dove hunts.
I have not hunted since I left Louisiana in my late teens, so I have a lot to learn as the years have passed me by without thinking about it. Spent my time chasing a little white ball around a perfectly good game land & providing bait & other morsels to the hungry fish out in the Atlantic... Now that boating has more become of a trip to the sandbar w/ the wife & the dog, I want to get out and try to hunt. So again Thank You and keep the info coming so I do not ruin this Fox.

Marty