CSMC vs Custom Fox small bore?

[SPE33]

20 Sterlingworth with ejectors currently listed on Gunbroker that has 26" barrels.
Item#482309850. Listed under "Other manufacturer" No connection here,but I believe
it is a nicer gun than that "full professional restoration".Those case colors look kind
of funky to me.

[vaturkey]

In my opinion, good mechanical condition in a custom project is more important than ejectors or the last two inches of barrel length. I would like my Becker style Fox project to have had ejectors and 32" barrels, but the outstanding state of preservation of the 30" gun became more important. It has no ejectors and it has 30" barrels, which will be perfectly fine when the gun is completed. Rarity of features is not on my agenda when planning a custom project. I think Tom Tutwiler has mentioned that not all of his custom projects are ejector guns or 32" 20 gauges. Bird guns and pigeon guns don't need Kautsky triggers, ejectors, or any particular barrel length to be useful in the field. In fact, a custom "bird gun" could have non original cut barrels and still be a great canvas for the gunmaker's art. Originality is not on the plate when a custom project is being planned, or at least it shouldn't be.

Agree with you Bill. My custom 20 gauge that was just completed is an extractor 26" barreled gun. Dan Rossiter did a semi-beavertail to give me a bit more to hang onto and to add some weight to the front end. I shot it on Sporting Clays yesterday and had zero problem with the fact that I had to open the gun and pull out the empty's and drop them in the empty shell bucket in front of me and not look around for shells that were ejected in the area. This is a hunter gun, not a clays gun, but if I did my part it certainly held up its end.

The key thing IMO is having a good platform to start with. A 28" ejector gun with less then perfect barrels and off face would be far less desirable in the end then a extractor gun that was perfect in the mechanical sense. There is a 16 gauge Sterly with 30" barrels on GB right now. That would be a great platform gun IMO assuming it is mechanically sound.

[Silvers]

Just want to report here about a very timely repair. Last week while at the Northeast SxS a friend Eric flagged me down with a Connecticut Fox that had just broken an ejector guide pin. Pin was lodged in its barrel hole and wouldn't tap out. I suggested he have the factory do the repair and since CSMC had a booth there at the event, that was easy to do. He gave it to the rep on Saturday and presumably the gun went into the shop on Monday. Eric emailed to me on Tuesday that the rep had called him, that a new ejector was fitted and his Fox was being returned shipped = 2 days in the shop. Eric also commented on how nice it was, not dealing with a waiting list and "promises" that often aren't met. His Fox was bought used and thus its lifetime warranty didn't apply. I don't know what the repair cost was but I'd bet it was less than having a skilled 'smith try to repair a small bore ejector and without it being a cobbled up job.

Now ..... I'm the first one to say that Fox guns are very reliable - but parts (new ones and especially old ones) do break and then you're looking for someone to fix the part or find/get a new one hard fitted. Waiting in queue can be a hassle too, especially during bird season.

It's JMO but this is something to think about if you're considering doing a high-end custom Fox small bore and really do intend to hunt and shoot clays with it. Yup I know small bore Foxes aren't dedicated clays guns but how else are you going to get practice in with that Fox for serious work in the field?

UPDATE: After posting this I emailed to Eric to find out about the cost of repair and he replied, the repair and return shipping were "no charge". How's that for standing behind the latest Finest Gun in the World?

[Mike of the Mountain]

" Yup I know small bore Foxes aren't dedicated clays guns but how else are you going to get practice in with that Fox for serious work in the field?"

I thought all my SxS shotguns were dedicated clays guns??

[jolly bill]

UPDATE: After posting this I emailed to Eric to find out about the cost of repair and he replied, the repair and return shipping were "no charge". How's that for standing behind the latest Finest Gun in the World?

Speaks well for CSMC/Tony Galazan to do a non warranty repair with quick turnover and no charge, including shipping.

[fox-admin]

I am the original owner of a CSMC Fox and it has been back to the factory twice and returned within a week at no charge. Once the ejector guide pin broke in Argentina after uncountable shells. The provided ammo was very dirty and it was the cause of the broken pin in my opinion. Unburned powder accumulated behind the ejectors. Repaired no questions asked. The second repair was for a light front trigger pull. Same deal returned in a week no charge. One thing I learned about Argentina-----don't left the staff clean your gun---they don't handle many doubles.

[SXS ohio]

I have nothing but good to report on CSMC....We are blessed to have a gun company that can build these fine shotguns we love right here in good old USA! But like any hi quality service industry they can get overwhelmed at times. A customer must be willing to understand their limitations and not get a weggie about it. Back in march 2015 I bought a minty but pre-owned CSMC Fox DE-spl. 28gauge. Gun was built in 1997 Comes in at 5lbs-2.5oz very light when shooting 100 rounds or so. I bought some RST light shells for the shoot. I also had some fiocchi VIP, Winchester AA and federal target. I found out that the left barrel would not shoot the fiocchi every time but fired all the other ammo with not one miss. I was at the northeast SXS shoot at Hausmanns...CSMC was set up in the vendors tent so I remarked to Camil about my troubles. The main issue was a loose for-arm, very minor, just a tiny click of movement and also mentioned the misfires of only fiocchi ammo. He looked the gun over and offered to repair the for-end if I would drop it off late saterday. I did just that and on Tuesday he called and said the for-end was repaired and gun was to be shipped back. I asked about the miss fires. He had forgot to ask the smith about it and said he would go right then and have it checked out. Two days later he called and said they found the fir pin to be a tad short on the left side and replaced it. Gun was then shipped back in a brand new box free of charge.....(-: Thanks all SXS ohio

[Sporrns]

ROMAC, I love the last couple of sentences in your post! Congratulations on your daughter's graduation from Penn State! When my daughter graduated from College of Charleston SC some years ago the 'preferred' hotels offered the same ripoff pricing for minimum-night stays around graduation weekend. We did he math and decided to rent a neat little carriage house next to a primo B&B down on the Battery - it had everything; in-ground pool, great view of Fort Sumpter, etc. When the smoke cleared, we paid about $400 more for a Wed. thru Monday stay at the carriage house than the "minimum" rental at any hotel!

I had already written the last giant check to clear my daughter's tuition, room and board the previous September. A year or so later, when my wife kept probing as to how much I paid for a Parker .410 GHE, I just told her it was WAAAAY less than the amount I sacrificed from my meager inheritance to pay for our girl's last investment in education.

[C.O.B.]

I have done this both ways. I have lusted for a 410 for years, well ok decades. My lust centered around a Parker VHE skeet gun. I had a chance to buy a CSM Fox FE 410 for about half what a Parker would have cost and I couldn't be more pleased with it. A few years ago while at the U.P. SXS shoot a thought entered my head to have a shotgun built. At the time my GSP Gunner was up in years so I got a Parker VH 20 from a PGCA member and had it transformed into a custom gum. I couldn't be happier with the outcome. Gunner's gun is just spectacular in every way.

I have been savagely bitten by the Fox bug and have an upgraded XE 16 being stocked now. I wanted a graded 12 for targets and a Sterlingworth with ejectors and 30 inch F/F barrels will arrive today. That gun will go off to the smith and be transformed into just exactly what I want in a target gun. It should be stocked and shoot able by hausmanns next year and then off to be engraved.

CSM or custom is entirely dependent on the individual and what he wants to spend. My custom Fox 12ga will be probably somewhere in the low 5 figures similar to many CSM guns. With the CSM guns you will have a great factory warranty and won't have to wait a year for completion. If I was looking for a nice 20 I would lean towards the CSM VS custom just for the time frame envolved.

[Goldenfox]

C.O.B.,
You have indeed been bitten by the Fox bug, just as so many of us on this forum. It is indeed a disease that develops once you have been bitten. The first step in your recovery is admitting that you have a problem. You need to sell your collection (to me). You can't just sneak around behind your wife's back and lie to her about where all your money is spent. One fail-safe deception is to tell her you have a girlfriend. Wives are more apt to believe this, and possibly even be more understanding than if you divulge your true affliction.
I also detect that you may be getting bit by another bug, a more insidious beast...the 16ga bug. It may actually be worse than the Fox bug, but then I see that you have combined the two. You may be hopelessly infected and lost. Next thing you know, you'll be joining the 16ga.com group for your daily escape from reality. You might even have to tell your wife that you have two girlfriends to disguise your true problems.
There are also other bugs that have a similar effect on you...One that I have recently discovered is the Lindner bug...especially if they have damascus barrels. Be ware of this culprit. The guns are extremely well-built and are affordable in the lower grades. The internal mechanisms are the same in all their guns. The more expensive ones just have more elaborate engraving. Stay away from them...I NEED them myself.
Also watch out for the Parker bug! This one, for some reason, has not yet infected me. I only have one Parker, and it is a reproduction, not a "real" one, and it is not in a real gauge, being a 28 bore. I do hear tell of another bug that can be particularly virulent...the 28ga bug. That one still has not bitten me yet...really...I only have 4 of them.
I hope some of the above helps you with whatever may try to gain your attention and affection.
Goldenfox

[C.O.B.]

Golden Fox I appreciate your insight and advise, unfortunately your 20+ Parkers, 15 16ga's, 4 Fox's ( bought a vey nice 32 inch SW yesterday) behind the curve. I won't get into the Pre64 M70's or the custom rifles (my 4th 7X57 is in the works) or the varmint rifles it just takes up to much time. I have drifted to the lure of the Fox from the Parker side of the road and I like it. I will NEED a 30 inch 20 for targets in the near future and fear it will have to be a CSM Fox as a 20 bore Fox is hard to find. I have no interest in the Linder guns so there all your IF and ONLY IF you stay away from the English guns especially the hammer guns. Deal???

[Silvers]

I started this thread and want to reconnect with those following it. I've gone back and forth on getting a true Custom made up, versus buying a CSMC Fox small bore. And finally for various reasons I decided on going with the Connecticut Fox. This first one is a pre-owned XE Special, 20 bore and with 26-inch Chromox marked pipes choked IC and Mod, and with twin sights. Stock dimensions were spot on for me and after shooting the gun extensively I am happy as a lark. The gun was ordered with exhibition feathercrotch black walnut, FE grade checkering, full grip with logo'd cap, single-selective trigger, skeleton buttplate, and special scroll engraving instead of the regular X type. The frame sides have full scrollwork, no game bird scenes, but with the Ansley H Fox banner intertwined. Otherwise the gun has the long forend with ebony tip, profiled breech balls and a fox on the alert that's engraved in the regular X location ahead of the trigger plate. Weight 5^14. She has the original owner's initials inset in small gold letters on the trigger guard bow, and I talked with Geoff Gournet about removing/replacing with matching scrollwork. But in the end I decided to leave the letters intact - same as I would do if I found a Philly or Utica Fox that had been ordered with a monogram or similar on the tg bow or a stock oval. This one is now 12 years old. I'll be shooting her at the Northern SxS early next month and will be happy to let anyone see or handle there. Incidentally I've now had a chance to study this Connecticut Fox from the mechanical and technical aspects and it's made the same as the older Fox small bores, except of course for modern steels and the rocker-type trigger shift button which I much prefer for quick action over the small one on a Kautzky. Another plus is that the lifetime factory warranty carried over to me. Done deal and she will be bird hunting in a few months.

Edited to answer a question - engraving is signed: A Tuscano

wood is actually darker than in these pics = camera effect?

[Rogue Hunter]

YOU HAVE MY GUN! LOL!

But really, that wood is fine looking.

[C.O.B.]

Frank that's a very nice looking gun congrats! I'm in the process of doing a custom Fox for target shooting. I have the blank narrowed down to one of nine potential candidates. I'm of the opinion if you want a nice graded Fox 20 esp if your looking for something with long barrels than CSM is the way to go. There is a 32 inch 20 on GI but asking price is $20K and for that money IMHO CSM would have the edge.
Good luck with her on the Grouse.

[simcgunner]

Beauty Frank. Congratulations. Watch out Grouse!